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Prosecuted but Genuine identity issue?, As above.
theinnocentman
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 02:23
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A relative of mine was recently prosecuted for failure to identify driver and speeding (7mph over limit), a conviction ensued in my relatives name along with a steep fine and 9penalty points. However while the conviction was in my relatives name the date of birth on the conviction was that of another relative. i remember reading quite a while ago about Genuine identity issues (not your average clerical errors etc). said relative didn't attend court, and the bailiffs are now giving him grief. he's contacted them and asked them to ascertain the correct identity and was told they would get in touch when they know more. baliffs are now knocking on relatives door and causing him misery. they've also claimed to have knocked more than once and tried to get in contact. relative is sure this isn't the case. no points or fines appear on relatives license either. what's the position on this and genuine identity issues? advice very much appreciated dry.gif


This post has been edited by theinnocentman: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 02:32
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post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 02:23
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The Rookie
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 05:50
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So does the name of the one being chased match the name of the one who was convicted?

As an aside how on earth was that relative so dumb as to pick up nine points?


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Jlc
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 07:36
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When they received the summons (SJPN I guess) what did they do?

There’s not a lot of detail leading up to the conviction - this is critical. Actions and timelines could be vital.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

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roythebus
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 07:40
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I'd guess 6 points for FTF with hefty fine at least and something else, maybe speeding.
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 07:56
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Yes, but getting 9 points would indicate a guilty plea was submitted to the underlying offence.

Was this a roadside stop?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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theinnocentman
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 11:29
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yes the surnames match. no this was a speed camera 4 in the morning. he was never stopped hence failure to name driver. nip was sent a few days later. I guess they went heavy because he failed to show up in court. he never plead guilty to anything. they done him in his absence. 6 points for failure to name driver. 3 for speeding huh.gif

This post has been edited by theinnocentman: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 11:37
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southpaw82
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 12:33
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QUOTE (theinnocentman @ Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 11:29) *
yes the surnames match. no this was a speed camera 4 in the morning. he was never stopped hence failure to name driver. nip was sent a few days later. I guess they went heavy because he failed to show up in court. he never plead guilty to anything. they done him in his absence. 6 points for failure to name driver. 3 for speeding huh.gif

If he didn’t plead guilty one wonders how he was convicted of speeding, since there is unlikely to have been sufficient evidence beyond a reasonable doubt as to who was driving. Your friend may wish to consider an appeal on this point, if in time to do so.

I’m not entirely clear on what the issue is - your friend was convicted but another person’s date of birth was recorded and now bailiffs are chasing both your friend and this relative. Is that about right? Why doesn’t your friend just pay the fine?


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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 12:40
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You ideally need to call the court and find out what happened. It would be unusual to get points for both unless they had other evidence that he was driving.

If they have made a error then he could ask for the case to be reopened in the interests of justice and attempt to do a plea bargain where he pleads guilty to the speeding in exchange for them dropping the S172. Of course if they have evidence he was driving from another source that may not get him anywhere.

With regards to the judgement for the debt, if the error was such that he genuinely didn't receive notice then there may be a case to argue. However, the error is so minor that he has clearly received it. It's also quite possible that the error was because they were getting the details from another database because he hadn't returned the S172 request for driver details anyway. If the name and address is correct the bailiffs will pursue it.

We do see cases at this stage where people put their head in the sands and ignore it. However, it is really important it is dealt with now. In the best circumstances they could walk out with a small fine/costs/surcharge for the speeding offence. If they ignore it bailiffs will keep pursuing the money and eventually sell possessions or drag him back to court.
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Logician
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 12:41
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Relative A, the one being chased by bailiffs, needs to contact the court office and convince them that they have set the bailiffs on the wrong man and get them called off.

Relative B, the one who was speeding, cannot follow the route of getting the conviction set aside by a statutory declaration, because he appears to have known about the hearing at which he was convicted in his absence, having failed to respond to the summons/requisition. He could try to get the case re-opened under s.142 Magistrates Courts Act 1980, on the basis that it is not in the interests of justice to convict him both of failing to name the driver and the speeding, and there is unlikely to have been evidence that he was in fact driving, but that may or may not be successful and as he has not bothered to do anything else, he probably won't do that either.

This post has been edited by Logician: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 13:43


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Jlc
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 13:25
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QUOTE (theinnocentman @ Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 11:29) *
...this was a speed camera 4 in the morning. he was never stopped hence failure to name driver. nip was sent a few days later.

The 'failure to name the driver' follows the s172 request delivered with the NIP. What happened after the NIP was received?

(Not being stopped at the time has nothing to do with the failure to name the driver)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 13:26


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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theinnocentman
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 13:46
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still in time for an appeal so its a possibility. the summons, conviction and bailiff papers all had relative A's name, with relative B's Date of birth. An error of the court, not sure how the mix up happened but it did. I remember reading once on GENUINE issues of identity (which to my view this is) it can have technical ramifications on the conviction itself. DVLA not being able to issue points etc. therefore rendering the conviction void?

if an appeal is lodged theoretically would it be possible for the summons to be corrected and reissued with the correct details?

also relative A has tried to clear it up with the bailiffs head office. was told they would contact in regards to the issue and it seems to have been completely ignored.

I highly doubt they have evidence to prove who was behind the wheel at the time and do not have appropriate evidence to convict for the speeding charge.

just to clear up relative B, besides having date of birth on paperwork is not involved. no court papers, no bailiffs or anything otherwise.

add on. after the NIP was received the summons was effectively ignored over the identity issue.

This post has been edited by theinnocentman: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 13:56
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Jlc
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 14:17
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Not enough detail to comment - what happened after the NIP was received is critical. (The only details they would have to start the process is the registered keeper details - unless someone else provided driver information)

Ignoring a 'summons' is never a good idea.

Also, without knowing what happened 'at court' it's impossible to comment. Perhaps they have a photo from the camera? (And matched it to the DL photo)

Basically, you can't get a straight answer that the prosecution was 'void' without knowing more.

QUOTE (theinnocentman @ Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 13:46) *
after the NIP was received the summons was effectively ignored over the identity issue.

...and the rather important bit in the middle?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 14:18


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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theinnocentman
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 14:48
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jlc they must of gone by the registered keepers details. no paperwork was filled by relative A or anything of the like.

its possible they have evidence but I highly doubt it. bearing in mind the event was middle of last winter. car has dark privacy glass and with the exception of snow it was still very dark out.

yes I agree on ignoring summons, relative A is retired navy, doesn't respond well to..well anything official.

update. Relative A spoke to solicitor this morning, sounds like DVLA are going to have a hard time issuing points. however may be best to pay the bailiffs to keep them at bay, unless attempts to set the conviction aside/appeal are made, in which case, eventual corrections could be made and the points could potentially be legally issued.


Further update. Relative A has spoken to bailiffs apparently enforcement cant proceed over the identity issues. no goods can be seized, but payment is still being requested. if no payment is received there may be a referral back to the court as non payment of fine. and arrest warrant issued. does this sound right? would this be possible if the enforcement cant be issued in the first place?

This post has been edited by theinnocentman: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 16:13
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NewJudge
post Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 20:15
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QUOTE (theinnocentman @ Wed, 20 Mar 2019 - 14:48) *
if no payment is received there may be a referral back to the court as non payment of fine. and arrest warrant issued. does this sound right? would this be possible if the enforcement cant be issued in the first place?

Ignoring for a moment the issue of an arrest warrant, yes it does sound right. If fine collection is placed with bailiffs and they are unable to collect the sum owed (for whatever reason) the matter will return to court. Whoever owes the money will probably be asked to attend a "Fines Enforcement Court". Normally that court will only be interested in collecting the fines (or writing off some or all of it, depending on what they discover about the defendant's means). But this issue needs resolution and there should be the opportunity to air the matter properly.

Ignoring the matter at that stage may well see a warrant for arrest issued. Ultimately non-payment of fines can be dealt with by a custodial sentence and to avoid that your relative needs to engage with the court to see the matter resolved.
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