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Council PCN appeal turned down for wrong reason
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post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 15:31
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Hi there,

Wondering if anyone can help.

My mum - who is in her 70s - accidentally parked in a loading/unloading bay rather than a parking space and was ticketed.

She didn't realise she had been given a ticket as - by the time she returned to her car - the ticket had been removed by someone. She only found out when she received a letter asking her to pay the full and not discounted amount in the post.

She appealed on the basis that she was not aware a ticket had been served owing to the above reason, while requesting to pay at the reduced amount.

She has received a response back from the council stating the following:

'Your correspondence indicates that you believe the PCN ws not correctly served. According to our records, the PCN was affixed and therefore correctly served.'


My mum did not dispute the fact that the ticket was not 'correctly served', she simply requested to pay at the reduced rate as she was unaware she'd been given a PCN in the first place.

Now my mum is going to appeal under the Traffic Management Act 2004 via London Tribunals, but I was wondering if the council's above reason for refusing her appeal should be mentioned in her second appeal, as they got her reasons for he initial appeal wrong.

Many thanks,

Joe
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post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 15:31
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hcandersen
post Sun, 31 May 2020 - 06:55
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+1.
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post Mon, 8 Jun 2020 - 14:06
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 30 May 2020 - 08:43) *
@PMB, thanks. Yes the NOR date of 20 May which gives 18 June as the last day of the one, the only, the original '28-day period'.


but I’m not really sure where to start!


Steady breathing, calmness. It's a very straightforward procedure.

Any appeal would relate to 2 aspects:
1. Putting in front of the adjudicator the argument made in the representations, amended if necessary;
2. Putting in front of the adjudicator arguments in respect of the NOR whether these relate to how the authority considered the reps or, very importantly in your case, flaws in the NOR's content, which are called 'procedural improprieties'.

A NOR has two functions:
1. To respond to reps,
2. To specify the appeals procedure and the council's powers should the penalty not be paid and an appeal not made.

The NOR makes a complete hash of the appeals procedure. This really, really, really, annoys me.
Authorities have been exercising these powers since 2008 (even longer in London). That some authorities are so inept that they cannot ensure that owners are correctly informed of their rights of appeal brings the oversight of this procedure into disrepute IMO. It's not as if these rights have been specified earlier in the piece, they haven't: this is the authority's one and only time to inform owners of their legal options on receipt of a NOR.

What a NOR must include:
1.That the owner must make an appeal no later than the end of the period of 28 days beginning on the date of service of the NOR, 'the 28-day period';
2.That an appeal may be made later and adjudicators have the power to register appeals made late provided they are accompanied by reasons for lateness.
3.That the adjudicator may award costs against either party and the grounds on which this may be done;
4.That the penalty charge must be paid no later than the end of 'the 28-day period' failing which the council may increase the penalty and take further recovery action i.e. charge certificate. (I say i.e. charge certificate and not e.g. because a NOR is not required to refer to 14 days to pay and the gruesome punishment that may befall an owner who doesn't, the NOR is simply required to inform the owner that a CC may be served, when and its effect).

Your NOR fails on:
1, 2, 3 and 4.
The 28-day period used by the authority is 'from the date of this notice being served'. The period is defined incorrectly to start with and then subsequently referred to as the 28-day period. Between the NOR and the appeal form I count 5 incorrect references to this period and not a single correct one.

Talking of the appeals form - and this is another of my betes noir(sorry about the missing accent), IMO it is not part of the NOR, therefore only what appears in the council-generated letter counts. But if I'm wrong on this point and the authority are allowed to claim that the form does form part of the NOR then it becomes the council's NOR for which they are wholly responsible: they may NOT point to any inaccuracies in its contents and seek to avoid responsibility. It's all or nothing. In addition, IMO those mandatory elements of the regs which are not in the body of the NOR but in the form i.e. appeals made late and costs, MUST IMO be given the same prominence as in the NOR and not, as here, be drowned out by other minutiae.

For starters!


Thanks so much for your help so far everyone - you really are a great community!

Sorry for the radio silence, my mum’s dog recently had a cruciate ligament op and I’ve moved in to help out with keeping an eye on the little scamp! I’m averaging 3 hours a night’s sleep with work thrown in for good measure! I've told her that I'll deal with it today though as she's stressing out (my mum, not the dog - he wouldn't understand what all the fuss is about).

So, could I write something similar to the below? Any help/advice would be much appreciated!

I write to appeal the Notice of Rejection (NoR) received from Bexley Parking Service and dated 20/5/20.

My reasons for appeal are as follows:

1. The NoR fails to state I have must make an appeal no later than the period of 28 days beginning on the date the NoR is served;
2. The NoR fails to state that an appeal may be made later and adjudicators have the power to register appeals made late provided they are accompanied by reasons for lateness;
3. The NoR fails to state that an adjudicator may award costs against either party and on which grounds this may be done;
4. Bexley Parking Service rejected my appeal on the grounds that the PCN was ‘correctly served’. I have not disputed this fact, nor have I requested they cancel the PCN. I simply requested to pay at the reduced rate because the PCN had been removed from my vehicle upon returning to it; I only knew the PCN had been issued when I received a letter requesting me to pay the full amount, dated ******. Unfortunately, there is no option on Bexley Parking Service's website to add comments to an appeal in order to explain this reason and/or request to pay at a reduced rate in such extenuating circumstances.

Yours sincerely,

Joe’s Mum!


I'm just wondering if I need to add anything else based on the correspondence received so far. As a side, the NoR does mention the Charge Certificate at the bottom of page one/beginning of page 2, so didn't include that, but please pick me up if I'm wrong! I've included a link to the docs, in case you need to look at them again: https://imgur.com/a/BNVB8u7

Many thanks again and sorry to bother you with this.

Joe
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cp8759
post Mon, 8 Jun 2020 - 14:23
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Do not appeal using that, it needs re-writing.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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post Mon, 8 Jun 2020 - 23:14
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Hi CP, any advice on how would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

This post has been edited by Fined again: Tue, 9 Jun 2020 - 00:35
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cp8759
post Tue, 9 Jun 2020 - 10:58
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QUOTE (Fined again @ Tue, 9 Jun 2020 - 00:14) *
Hi CP, any advice on how would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

To be honest right now I'd just register the appeal on the tribunal website and put "full grounds of appeal to follow in due course", there's maybe a 30-40% change the council won't contest in which case you'll win by default without the need to draft anything.

If the council does contest, the evidence pack will appear as PDF files on the tribunal appeals portal. In that event download the PDFs, share them on here and I'll write the appeal for you.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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post Thu, 11 Jun 2020 - 12:24
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Many thanks CP8759. Just popped home from my mum's to register the appeal online now. Will see you posted. Thanks so much for everyone's help so far!

Joe
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post Thu, 18 Jun 2020 - 11:00
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 9 Jun 2020 - 11:58) *
QUOTE (Fined again @ Tue, 9 Jun 2020 - 00:14) *
Hi CP, any advice on how would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

To be honest right now I'd just register the appeal on the tribunal website and put "full grounds of appeal to follow in due course", there's maybe a 30-40% change the council won't contest in which case you'll win by default without the need to draft anything.

If the council does contest, the evidence pack will appear as PDF files on the tribunal appeals portal. In that event download the PDFs, share them on here and I'll write the appeal for you.


Hi CP8759,

I've received the below linked correspondence from London Tribunals and was wondering what I need to do next? As advised I stated 'full grounds of appeal to follow in due course' in the online appeal prior to receiving this, but it seems as though they are asking for further evidence for my mum's appeal. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,

Joe


https://imgur.com/a/KJGwjqm
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cp8759
post Sat, 20 Jun 2020 - 21:59
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That's just a template letter they send to everybody. The key issue is to keep an eye on the appeals portal and check whether the council uploads any evidence. If it does, download the PDFs and post them on here.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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post Sun, 21 Jun 2020 - 12:18
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 20 Jun 2020 - 22:59) *
That's just a template letter they send to everybody. The key issue is to keep an eye on the appeals portal and check whether the council uploads any evidence. If it does, download the PDFs and post them on here.


Great, many thanks!
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post Fri, 3 Jul 2020 - 16:53
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Hi CP8759,

Sorry to bother you with this again, but the council have now uploaded evidence to the London Tribunals portal. I have added the pages of evidence to the imgur link below, but if you need them in some other format, please let me know. The link is https://imgur.com/gallery/i2p5lzt

Also, one of the council docs states they have video evidence, but as far as I can see it’s only audio. Do you want me to transcribe the audio as well?

Many thanks in advance. My mum and I are extremely grateful.

Joe
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rosturra
post Sat, 4 Jul 2020 - 10:11
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Deleted

This post has been edited by rosturra: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 - 10:15
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cp8759
post Sat, 4 Jul 2020 - 16:26
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Audio of what? Upon the file to dropbox or google drive or similar, it might be a video file and you just happen not to have the correct codec installed on your computer.

Here's something I've knocked together though it may need to be changed based on what the audio or video file shows: https://bit.ly/2ZB6wSP


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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post Sun, 5 Jul 2020 - 12:04
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Hi cp8759.

Thank you so much for providing wording for the grounds of appeal - this is certainly much more than what we could do and it's really appreciated.

The footage is definitely just audio. It is a Windows Media file, which was played back on a Windows Media player using a family member's laptop, but only the audio was available. I use a Mac with QuickTime and it won't even open on that (obviously).

The recording is basically the parking attendant talking through what he's doing and at what times - he sounds exactly how I envisioned him to sound.

To be honest - but you'd be the expert here - I think what you have done so far will definitely suffice, and I would hate for you to have to spend any more time on this. If okay with you, I will upload what you've kindly written thus far and will update you on the progress.

Many thanks once again, absolutely amazing stuff!

Joe
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Longtime Lurker
post Sun, 5 Jul 2020 - 19:54
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I may not be much more than an average level forum user who is in awe of the likes of cp8759, but if there's one thing I do know, it's AudioVisual files and Macs!

I highly recommend VLC, a free video player that can cope with almost anything. Download it from https://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.en-GB.html
Even if we can't do anything else with this case at least we'll have helped you replace Quicktime!

If you want to be 100% sure it's an audio only file, then grab the free video converter called Handbrake from here: https://handbrake.fr/ - it's not as foolproof as VLC, and only converts instead of playing. but it can give an unbeatable level of detail about the coding and codecs of any media file.

If you don't want to install stuff, drop me a copy of the file via something like wetransfer/OneDrive/Google Drive and I'll let you know what it actually contains, and if necessary, convert it to something more widely playable with as little quality loss as possible.
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cp8759
post Sun, 5 Jul 2020 - 21:12
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I would also recommend opening the file in VLC, for curiosity if nothing else, but I doubt it would make much difference to the appeal. I would just upload the draft as it is, it should be enough


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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post Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 12:01
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Thanks Longtime Lurker and cp8759.

Just managed to view the video footage - I was wrong! It lasted 49 seconds in total, but it felt like 49 minutes owing to the sound of his voice.

The camera was upside-down throughout and the lens was covered in rain, but you can make out the ticket had been placed on my mum's car.

I'll update this post in early August with the outcome.

Thanks again!

Joe

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