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Posted by: DrOetker Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 21:24
Post #1553199

Thanks in advance,

I have received a Penalty Charge Notice for Contravention code:31 Camberwell New Road / Warner Rd / Camberwell PSG > London on the 16th Feb 2020 @ 18.28 hrs

"entering and stopping in a box when prohibited"

The CCTV screen shots suggest I was stopped in the box for only 2 seconds.

Looking at the road marking from google maps, the road markings are fairly worn out, is this reasonable grounds to contest?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4745888,-0.0945548,3a,75y,122.52h,68.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9sfCXdIKZil7PWNx7irLiw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Just wondering if I should contest this, and what the recommended process is, or should I just pay up?

Any advice welcome, thanks.

[attachment=69769:IMG_2020...6_WA0004.jpg]
[attachment=69768:IMG_2020...6_214256.jpg]
[attachment=69767:IMG_2020...6_214154.jpg]

Posted by: cp8759 Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 21:25
Post #1553203

As per every other thread on here, to receive proper advice please post the PCN in full (all sides of all pages), just redact your name and address.

Also download the video using Flash Video Downloader https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/flash-video-downloader/aiimdkdngfcipjohbjenkahhlhccpdbc and post it up, use a site like youtube or vimeo to hosts it.

Posted by: DrOetker Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:02
Post #1553215

Thanks for your reply and patients.

I've tired to edit the post above with the photos of the PCN and the 3 stills from the TFL website as there isn't a video.

Thank you

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:07
Post #1553219

post a gsv I can't find it from the location given

Posted by: DrOetker Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:34
Post #1553240

does this link not work ?

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4745888,-0.0945548,3a,75y,122.52h,68.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s9sfCXdIKZil7PWNx7irLiw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I tried to upload a screen grab from street view but i don't have enough space to upload another photo.

Posted by: Neil B Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:38
Post #1553245

QUOTE (DrOetker @ Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:34)

Posted by: MrChips Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 22:58
Post #1553253

That's an unusual layout.

For the purposes of this paragraph “box junction” means an area of the carriageway where the marking has been placed and which is—
(a) at a junction between two or more roads;
(b) at a gyratory system or roundabout;
© along a length of a two-way road (other than at a junction), the carriageway of which is not greater than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point; or
(d) on the length of road adjacent to the vehicular entrance to the premises of a fire, police or ambulance station

What's it for?

Posted by: DrOetker Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 23:03
Post #1553255

I suspect its to allow clearance for buses to access the bus garage (the entrance on the right hand side )

Posted by: MrChips Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 23:07
Post #1553257

I don't think that can be right - as the regulations I cut and pasted state it should only be used for that purpose outside a fire/police/ambulance station.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 23:15
Post #1553262

I still wonder about the location, what's Warner rd and Camberwell psg got to do with anything And regardless of the rights and wrongs of the box. I think there is no vires to place it there by the way. It extends to far and I would say from the photo you were beyond the entrance which would be the limit of the junction if this was a legal box

Posted by: DrOetker Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 23:17
Post #1553263

Thats is interesting because its hard to fathom what other purpose it could serve. The opposite side of the street is a puregym/residential with no access for cars etc.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4744879,-0.0943207,3a,90y,255.5h,88.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s1LO5gCiEiKF8tSYH7YW25w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D1LO5gCiEiKF8tSYH7YW25w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D110.62986%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192

Posted by: DrOetker Wed, 26 Feb 2020 - 23:27
Post #1553266

just saw this, seems like someone else also believes the box junction isn't within code


https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/authorisation_of_yellow_box_junc

Posted by: cp8759 Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 09:15
Post #1553320

Call TFL and ask for the video, you'll be sent a DVD in the post and the penalty will be put on hold while you wait. If the location is correct, the box is invalid and unenforceable, I've looked at this in detail quite recently.

Posted by: DrOetker Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 10:15
Post #1553341

Thanks for your advice, that sounds promising. I've done as you suggested and requested the DVD, TFL have placed the penalty on hold for 14 days.

Posted by: MrChips Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 20:23
Post #1558137

The FOI request has been responded to - no authorisation for the box found.

Posted by: cp8759 Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 22:29
Post #1558169

QUOTE (DrOetker @ Thu, 27 Feb 2020 - 10:15)

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 14:37
Post #1558457

As I said


2200070958 Camberwell New Road / Warner Road / Camberwell Passage


At this scheduled personal hearing the Appellant attended in person but the Enforcement Authority did not attend and were not represented.


Under Paragraph 11(1) in Part 7 of Schedule 9 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 a box junction marking conveys the prohibition that a person must not cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box marking due to the presence of a stationary vehicle.


The Penalty Charge Notice was issued under Section 4(1) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 on the basis of information provided by a camera or other device).


The Enforcement Authority’s case is that the contravention occurred at the junction of "Camberwell New Road with Warner Road and Camberwell Passage".


The Appellant says that there is no box junction marking at the junction of Camberwell New Road with Warner Road and Google Street View confirms this.


The images clearly show that the vehicle did enter this box junction marking, wherever it is, and then had to stop within the box due to the presence of a stationary vehicle.


However, I cannot find as a fact that the contravention specifically stated on the face of the Penalty Charge Notice.


Accordingly this appeal must be allowed.

Posted by: DrOetker Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 15:48
Post #1558754

Thanks for all your comments and updates. I only received the dvd recently as it was initially signed for by my neighbour. However I've not managed to view it because I don't have access to a dvd player currently. I spoke with TFL who have advised to file my counter argument anyway. I checked the road markings recently with the CCTV photos and I believe we're talking about the same box junction.

@ PASTMYBEST - is the argument you detailed here regarding the lack of clear markings or the legitimacy of the box junction placement?

Many thanks,

Graham

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 15:55
Post #1558758

QUOTE (DrOetker @ Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 15:48)

Posted by: DrOetker Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 18:05
Post #1558776

Ok thats interesting. Do you have any advice regarding how to word the appeal?

Thanks

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 18:53
Post #1558783

QUOTE (DrOetker @ Mon, 23 Mar 2020 - 18:05)

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 15:48
Post #1559165

Will draft something later 2190096099 s142 RTRA 1984 road”—
(a)
in England and Wales, means any length of highway or of any other road to which the public has access, and includes bridges over which a road passes,

Posted by: Mad Mick V Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 17:31
Post #1559173

If the DfT disown this box then all the more reason to contend that it does not comply under TSRGDs 2016 for the reasons given.

This might be an approval but it's certainly not like the present set-up:-

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/42814/response/111163/attach/html/3/peckhamYBJdimension.pdf.html

Have to double check that the location is correct so we need the video.

Mick.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:06
Post #1559182

QUOTE (MrChips @ Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 20:23)

Posted by: MrChips Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 17:17
Post #1559402

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 25 Mar 2020 - 18:06)

QUOTE (MrChips @ Thu, 19 Mar 2020 - 20:23)

The FOI request has been responded to - no authorisation for the box found.

can we see the response

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Thu, 26 Mar 2020 - 17:37
Post #1559408

If the OP will confirm there intention to make representations I will draft them

Posted by: DrOetker Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 10:04
Post #1559774

Hi again,

Sorry I missed your most recent replies. I don't know if I will be able to make person representation as I had to move away from London very quickly recently due to the current pandemic and subsequent job loss. I'm now a 10hr drive away. I will be going back however, it would just depend how soon these hearings typically take to organise.

Thanks,

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 10:13
Post #1559775

QUOTE (DrOetker @ Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 10:04)

Posted by: hcandersen Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 10:31
Post #1559779

Authorisation?

64General provisions as to traffic signs.

(1)In this Act “traffic sign” means any object or device (whether fixed or portable) for conveying, to traffic on roads or any specified class of traffic, warnings, information, requirements, restrictions or prohibitions of any description—
(a)specified by regulations made by the [F1relevant authority] , or
(b)authorised by the [F1relevant authority] ,

IMO, these are exclusive and set in order i.e. if a sign is specified by regs (in this case its design and type of location) then the SoS does not have the power to authorise a different sign, this would lead to chaos and would be the same as bypassing parliament.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 10:47
Post #1559782

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 10:31)

Posted by: Mad Mick V Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 10:55
Post #1559786

@hca
The sequence is in this case is:-
1) the box appears not to comply with the TSRGDs 2106;
2) has it ever had DfT authorisation?

I appreciate what you say about the current climate esp with the relaxation of the rules on YBJs. However what you imply is that all old DfT YBJ authorisations are defunct.

Mick

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 11:04
Post #1559790

QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 10:55)

Posted by: DrOetker Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 14:40
Post #1559874

Hopefully have the link sorted here. Let me know if this helps inform the next steps. From what I see the box junction in the video is outside the bus garage. There does not appear to be a box junction where Warner Road meets Camberwell Road (when viewed using google maps) Warner Rd seems to be at the top right hand side of this video, some cars are pulling in/out.

https://vimeo.com/401636711

<iframe src="https://player.vimeo.com/video/401636711" width="640" height="480" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; fullscreen" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 14:57
Post #1559877

QUOTE (DrOetker @ Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 14:40)

Posted by: DrOetker Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 15:57
Post #1559907

I don't have the letter to hand, however, I spoke with TFL earlier in the week who advised that ideally I would appeal by Thursday the 26th because this appeal would go through at the initial reduced penalty fee, after the 26th the appeal would be considered at the increased penalty fee. We didn't discuss a date that would mark the appeal being out of time. I expect if I can get it in over the next few days it will still be considered.

I didn't receive the footage for quite a while so I suspect the window to appeal has been adjusted accordingly. I can proceed on the TFL portal and the fee has been raise to £130

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 16:14
Post #1559912

QUOTE (DrOetker @ Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 15:57)

Posted by: DrOetker Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 18:21
Post #1559957

I genuinely can't thank you enough. I find myself now in a situation where I have a lot of time at my disposal. A stark contrast to previous weeks. I look forward to returning the favour somehow PASTMYBEST

Many thanks

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 28 Mar 2020 - 19:48
Post #1559976

I have been giving this case a lot of thought, my original plan was to go in guns blazing re all te technical legal arguments. But TfL have form for rejecting reps that are made late so I think it might be better to go softly softly. with a nice simple representation that they are more likely just to reject easily. that at least will restart the clock


PCN number xxxxxxxxx
VRM AA 23 BCD

(your details)

As your records will show this PCN was placed on hold whilst I was given sight of the CCTV footage. I thankyou for that. Having reviewed the footage I would make representations to the effect that te PCN should be cancelled for the following reasons

1:- that the stop was only for a short time

2:- that the stop was at the very end of the box markings

3:- that there was no obstruction caused by the stop

I trust that whilst there was an undoubted stop within box marking you can find in my favour in this instance and cancel this PCN on this occation

Many thanks in anticipation of your kind response



The aim of these simple representations is as I said to give the best chance that they will consider them. I have worded this so that I can use the real grounds at the next stage only changing tack 90 degrees not 180

Posted by: DrOetker Sun, 29 Mar 2020 - 09:32
Post #1560080

Thank you for taking the time to write this for me. I will augment with my details and file shortly. I'll let you know when I hear back.

Thank you kindly,

Dr O

Posted by: DrOetker Sat, 2 May 2020 - 12:52
Post #1565660

Hi there, I just received a letter from TFL rejecting the appeal. I have a further 28 days to contest.

" ...Upon further investigation into the CCTV footage, we can confirm your vehicle followed the vehicle in front into the box junction when it would not be able to clear it. If there is a vehicle already ahead of you in the box junction you must wait until...The CCTV footage of the contravention does not correspond withe circumstances described within your representation....your vehicle was stationary for a total of 27 seconds.....we do not consider the mitigating factors present give reason to cancel the PCN..."


Is the next appeal the one go in with the discrepancy regarding the location of the box junction on the road?

Many thanks

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 2 May 2020 - 14:19
Post #1565677

QUOTE (DrOetker @ Sat, 2 May 2020 - 13:52)

Posted by: DrOetker Sat, 2 May 2020 - 17:13
Post #1565704

Great news then . Thank you.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sat, 2 May 2020 - 18:09
Post #1565715

Remind me next week and I'll draft an appeal

Posted by: DrOetker Mon, 4 May 2020 - 17:12
Post #1565899

Gentle nudge as requested Pastmybest. Thank you again.

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Wed, 6 May 2020 - 09:14
Post #1566128

QUOTE (DrOetker @ Mon, 4 May 2020 - 18:12)

Posted by: PASTMYBEST Sun, 10 May 2020 - 16:54
Post #1566594

Appeal fill in the required details and sent to the tribunal

https://1drv.ms/w/s!AtBHPhdJdppVzFIPQS9r9bSw7Qsl?e=BwIO54

Posted by: DrOetker Mon, 18 May 2020 - 11:38
Post #1567671

Thats amazing, thank you so much for taking the time to do this for me. The letter was dated 24th April with 28 days to appeal. I'm going to organise this today. Thank you kindly.

Posted by: DrOetker Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 19:59
Post #1570560

Update: I just logged into thr TFL website to check the progress of the appeal and it has been cancelled ! > "The Penalty Charge Notice has been cancelled. TfL are not contesting an appeal submitted for this PCN"


I'm very grateful to all who help me on this forum, in particular I'd like to say a huge thank you to PASTMYBEST ! I'd like to get you a beer/wine/donation to say thanks if I can?


Kindly,

DrOetker

Posted by: Incandescent Wed, 10 Jun 2020 - 20:30
Post #1570573

Well done !!