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Private fine issued in work car park
OllieOtter1994
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 13:45
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Hi all,

This morning a colleague of mine was issued a parking fine from NTC (Norwich Traffic Control), this was given at our place of work – where my office owns and distributes a number of car park permits daily to those who request one.

This process means we have to enter the office to get the allocated display pass each morning, and quite often we spend an hour or so in work before nipping out to our cars with the pass. We have been doing this for many months now and have experienced zero issues as Jarrolds (who usually manage the park) allow a 15 minute period before issuing any tickets (in the rare occurrence of a warden being present).

However, in this instance with the NTC, he arrived at work at half 9, and was immediately tied down with meetings so unable to take out his pass. At around 11am he went out to display his permit, but noticed the fine had already been issued with no warning from NTC.

The fine was issued at 9.59am.

He has taken pictures of the car park permit schedule which clearly shows he had been allocated a permit, the pass, the car clearly displaying the pass etc. Is this defendable?

Any help would be appreciated on this please.

Many thanks

This post has been edited by OllieOtter1994: Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 14:14
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post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 13:45
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cabbyman
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 14:00
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EDIT your post to avoid identifying the driver. This is CRUCIAL!

Are you the RK of the vehicle? If so, you need to compose an appeal to the NtD AS REGISTERED KEEPER to arrive with them bty day 26; no earlier, no later. Post it here for critique before you send it.

Also, please post a copy of the NtC, redacted of identifying information


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ostell
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 14:50
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And what do the company have to say on the matter?
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OllieOtter1994
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 15:36
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Thanks for the responses both.

By company are you referring to NTC / Jarrolds or our employer?

This occurred this morning, so no further contact has been had with the company at current stage. I have enclosed a scan of the windowscreen notice if this is any help. Will also add photos of the NTC signs.



As mentioned...

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Attached File  Parking_fine_page_1.pdf ( 362.16K ) Number of downloads: 77
Attached File  Parking_fine_page_2.pdf ( 95.81K ) Number of downloads: 57
 
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The Rookie
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 15:45
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Your employer.....

It would also be interesting to know what rights the company have over the car park and spaces, is the car park in question solely for your company employees?


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OllieOtter1994
post Wed, 30 Jan 2019 - 17:10
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I'm not aware of the NTC previously issuing fines. As mentioned earlier, it is usually Jarrolds who warden this area (but they will always notify us of any impeaching cars before giving fines).

The car park is leased as part of the office space alongside other companies, and we have been assigned a limited amount of spaces based on the office floor space / no. of staff employed in this area.

I have had a word with the office secretary who will be contacting Jarrolds. It is their land, so perhaps they will be able to be able to give some relief to this..

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cabbyman
post Thu, 31 Jan 2019 - 18:39
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Further to my post #2, above, when you come to make your appeal to NTC, you need to send it to reach them on day 19, NOT day 26, as I stated. That was before I had the benefit of seeing the NtD.

Be very careful to keep your eye on deadlines. Don't let a delay in getting a response via the company allow you to miss NTC's 21 day appeal deadline.


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OllieOtter1994
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 12:23
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Thanks for letting me know will bear in mind.

There has been some back and forth with Jarrolds, the landowners / managers.

They have not budged on the issue, stating that people have had 'numerous warnings' before and that basically they have had enough of people in the office not displaying their permits.

They also mentioned that this vehicle was a 'repeat offender' for not displaying a permit previously.

It is worth mentioning that there has not been numerous warnings at all, and whilst we appreciate that previously, when the emails were circulated listing the offending vehicles (rather than straight away issuing fines) this was a generous way of maintaining the car park, to suddenly flip the dynamic without warning does not seem fair.



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cabbyman
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 13:13
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Forget that aspect, now. At least you know where you stand.

Have a look at other threads and compose your initial appeal, as KEEPER, to send to NTC. Post it on here for checking BEFORE you send it. It will need to reach them on day 19, as above. They will reject but, hopefully, having fallen into the trap of failing to get RKs' details from DVLA. They will offer you access to the kangaroo court that is IAS, which you subsequently ignore.

However, we jump ahead of ourselves. Get that draft appeal posted here.


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OllieOtter1994
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 13:31
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Thanks for that.

It seems the secretaries at work are pushing for it to be paid, rather than 'falling out' with the landlords, although I cannot see how appealing this will have any macro impact in regards to the leasing arrangement!

I will have a delve through here to find a suitable draft appeal template to use!
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ostell
post Mon, 4 Feb 2019 - 14:02
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With reference to one of the signs you posted it says "No vehicles to be parked in this area without authorisation". This is a forbidding sign in that it is not offering a parking contract to the unauthorised. With no offer of parking then it is perverse of them to claim that a contract to park exists and has been breached. If there is no contract then any charge is a penalty and is not allowed.

That should do you for your initial appeal AS THE KEEPER.
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OllieOtter1994
post Fri, 8 Feb 2019 - 15:18
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Hi all,

Just a quick update, I’ve been reading through some threads on here and think we should make an appeal based around the following points;

1. Notice to driver has not and cannot identify driver, only the keeper*
2. Authorised use within the leased number of spaces between the our employer and the landowner**
3. Poor signage -
3a. Forbidding sign
3b. No mention of requirement to display permit in signage

*Should this point be redacted given prior email communications with the land owner (Jarrolds not NTC) have identified the driver? Or would it be best off risking it and hoping there is not co-operation here between Jarrolds / NTC?

**Ideally it would be good to obtain a copy of the lease to see if permits required as part of it. But given our employer’s stance on the matter, it will likely not be possible..

I have not fleshed out these points yet but will do in the coming days.

I am also considering paying the £60 fine. Given our employer’s position of ‘not wanting to fall out with the landowners’ after email conversations with the landowner Jarrolds.

If there is no co-operation between Jarrolds and NTC then definitely worth pursuing as they will not be aware of the appeal taking place and point 1 will also be valid.

Any additional thoughts or recommendations welcome – thanks all.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 9 Feb 2019 - 03:40
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1/ Erm your muddled, of course not, so what?
2/ OK and does that authorisation require cars to display a permit? If not hey are trying to impose extra contractual obligations without a consideration
3/ 3b is the killer, driver was authorized, no requirement to display permit. We have that same 'miss' on the signs in my work car park, they cancel at first appeal on that basis when they see my same template appeal from my colleagues having lost a few times at POPLA.
Its unlikely Jarrold have passed on driver ID, they don't get anything from the penalties, just a free 'service' to pi55 off their own customers (tenants), if NTC dn't know that's all that matters.

Its not a fine it's an invoice.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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OllieOtter1994
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 11:40
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Hi again all,

Thanks for your feedback The Rookie. I have drafted an online appeal (thanks to cabbyman from another thread) below. Unfortunately I think the lease route is going to be difficult - given our employer's stance on the matter, I am a bit worried this may come back to bite my colleague.

I have been digging through the forum for a first stage appeal that suits better but struggled - I suppose not too important as this will more than likely be rejected anyway!

There is a 21 day notice for online appeal - so believe I have until the 19th Feb to submit.


Any feedback welcome before I send this off!!

Thanks!




Dear sirs,,

I am writing in regards to the Parking Charge Notice (ref _____________), as the keeper of the ______________ vehicle reg number __________. This PCN was dated 30th January 2019.

An investigation of the site in which this PCN was issued reveals that the signage is forbidding in nature and that no contract has formed with the driver. Furthermore, the signage does not stipulate that the driver was required to provide a valid car permit as part of authorisation, so any failure to display a permit cannot be deemed as unauthorised.

As no contract with the driver exists, you cannot hold me liable as keeper. I am under no obligation to name the driver and will not be doing so. I require you to cancel this notice forthwith or provide me with a POPLA code where I will arrange for you to be instructed to cancel it.

Regards,

Registered Keeper




Sorry should've mentioned that, the appeal is mostly from cabbyman - but I did add this sentence..

"Furthermore, the signage does not stipulate that the driver was required to provide a valid car permit as part of authorisation, so any failure to display a permit cannot be deemed as unauthorised."

So any potential scrutiny is probably going to fall at the above!

This post has been edited by OllieOtter1994: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:45
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cabbyman
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:00
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We are appealing a windscreen ticket, Notice to Driver, aren't we?

If so, start:

Dear sirs,

ref xxxxx VRM xxxxx

I have been passed the above Notice to Driver. I am writing to you as the registered keeper.

An investigation........


Make a small error in your name so that you can identify if they get your details from the DVLA at any point, as required under PoFA. eg. Grene instead of Green; Smiht instead of Smith, etc.

EDIT your version of the draft to remove the three words after the PCN no. That gives the game away!


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OllieOtter1994
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:47
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Thanks cabbyman - I've now edited the above and create the below new draft.

And yes sorry, I did see your comments in regards to the misspelling but forgot to reference in my post. Noted!

Cheers



Dear sirs,

Ref ______ VRM _______

I have been passed the above Notice to Driver. I am writing to you as the registered keeper.

An investigation of the site in which this PCN was issued reveals that the signage is forbidding in nature and that no contract has formed with the driver. Furthermore, the signage does not stipulate that the driver was required to provide a valid car permit as part of authorisation, so any failure to display a permit cannot be deemed as unauthorised.

As no contract with the driver exists, you cannot hold me liable as keeper. I am under no obligation to name the driver and will not be doing so. I require you to cancel this notice forthwith or provide me with a POPLA code where I will arrange for you to be instructed to cancel it.

Regards,

Registered Keeper

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cabbyman
post Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:58
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Yep. That looks good to me. See what one or two others have to say, but send it to meet the suggested date.


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OllieOtter1994
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 13:32
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Appeal now sent, fingers crossed - thanks for your help all!
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Redivi
post Tue, 19 Feb 2019 - 14:43
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Haven't previously noticed this thread. Shame

You won't get a POPLA code
That's only available when the company is a member of the BPA Approved Operator Scheme

Even if it's a member of the BPA, Norwich Traffic Control isn't a member of its AOS
It's an approved member of the "other" trade association - the IPC

Members of this organisation don't use POPLA for the second stage appeal
They offer appeals instead to the IAS

Do not appeal to the IAS
It guarantees that it will reject most appeals and has no purpose other than to tick the "independent appeal" box.
This enables the DVLA to justify giving IPC members access to the keeper database

It's the main reason that a number of the less reputable members of the BPA switched associations
They were losing too many POPLA appeals
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OllieOtter1994
post Fri, 22 Feb 2019 - 15:02
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I see - thanks for letting me know that, my mistake - easy to get confused on these!

Unsurprisingly the appeal has been rejected (I don't think the error would've had much of an impact).

Please see attached response letter, presumably this is an ignore job now until further notice is served?

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