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PCN Sent to old Address
GSK79
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 13:07
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Hi All,

Hope you can help me. I've today received a letter from JBW enforcement agents asking for £173 for a £98 debt owed to Birmingham city council for driving in a bus lane. This is the first I've heard of this as never received a PCN. I contacted the council and they advised that I need to contact the TEC to complete a PE3 and PE2, which I have just received the forms by email.

I moved address on the 19th Dec 2016 and the bus lane contravention was on the 25th Feb 2017. The person I spoke to at the TEC confirmed the notice was sent to my previous address.

I wrote to the DVLA literally a few days after I moved and checked my license was re-issued with my new address on the 31st Dec 2016. So no idea why Birmingham city council would send it to my previous address (Particularly as I'd also informed them I'd moved for my council tax bill!!!)

Anyway, I'm happy to pay the original fine, not happy that this is the first I've heard of it nearly a year later and that JBW have added their fees, plus I've missed out on 50% discount for paying 14 days.

Can you please help me with what I need to put into the PE3 and PE2 forms? I understand I will need to get them witnessed by county court.

Many thanks,

Gavin.

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post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 13:07
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Incandescent
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:42
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QUOTE (GSK79 @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:22) *
The JBW notice requires me to pay in full by the 7th March.

There is nothing to prevent you submitting a request to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration, but unfortunately, you not updating the V5 and the ability of the council to oppose the application means you would invariably have to pay out money to get a County Court judge to review the refusal with a view to overturning this. Unfortunately it is now a matter of arithmetic and working out what is your best option financially. My view, (others may differ), is that if the OOT is refused, it would be better to pay up and put this down as a learning opportunity in Life's Rich Pageant. Yes, a harsh lesson, but English civil law is very harsh, I'm afraid.

PS: Does the sum demanded of £173 include the £98 or is it the sum of the two ?

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:46
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hcandersen
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:59
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Oh very smart... should we be surprised . Try “ Oh yeah... Direct Debit... I never thought of that” And guess what the OP has since said

Why the attitude? The question is an obvious one which needed to be asked.

Asked and answered, end of.
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Neil B
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 22:03
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:42) *
PS: Does the sum demanded of £173 include the £98 or is it the sum of the two ?

Included.
QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:42) *
There is nothing to prevent you submitting a request to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration, but unfortunately, you not updating the V5 and the ability of the council to oppose the application means you would invariably have to pay out money to get a County Court judge to review the refusal with a view to overturning this.

I think it's important that the OP understands the OOT application is free.
You did go on to qualify that only 'if' it is refused is there a charge for pursuing it further but it being refused, although likely,
is not a forgone conclusion.

--
At the same time, the OP should be aware that while the next, additional, bailiff fee is £235, filing the OOT
suspends bailiff action while the matter is decided.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Incandescent
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 22:19
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Thanks for qualifying my advice. I do not know all the ins-and-outs by any means. Yes, good idea to submit one to at least suspend bailiff action so a pause for breath can be taken and considered thoughts made without undue pressure. One thing we all know is that bailiffs are very good at applying pressure !!
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Neil B
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 23:09
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 22:19) *
Thanks for qualifying my advice. I do not know all the ins-and-outs by any means. Yes, good idea to submit one to at least suspend bailiff action so a pause for breath can be taken and considered thoughts made without undue pressure. One thing we all know is that bailiffs are very good at applying pressure !!

On the other side of the coin I agree with you: A 4-6 week sweat and some work, with the odds against you, to save a net £143.
I guess, as you say, OP weighs up the value of their time.

tbh I might not even bother myself in the same position but you lot would never hear about it! biggrin.gif


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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StuartBu
post Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 23:29
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:59) *
Oh very smart... should we be surprised . Try “ Oh yeah... Direct Debit... I never thought of that” And guess what the OP has since said

Why the attitude? The question is an obvious one which needed to be asked.

Asked and answered, end of.

YOU asked how OP managed to tax the car and I put forward the suggestion that it could be getting paid by Direct Debit as that was the most obvious answer ( which turned out to be the case) but it clearly didnt occur to you... in fact were you even aware that it can be paid by that method? Even now you seem reluctant to accept that my suggestion was the most likely answer.
As for “attitude” thats a bit rich- Pot, Kettle , Calling comes to mind given some of the replies YOU give to folk posting enquiries in here.
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GSK79
post Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 07:27
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QUOTE (Incandescent @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:42) *
QUOTE (GSK79 @ Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 21:22) *
The JBW notice requires me to pay in full by the 7th March.

There is nothing to prevent you submitting a request to submit an Out-of-Time Statutory Declaration, but unfortunately, you not updating the V5 and the ability of the council to oppose the application means you would invariably have to pay out money to get a County Court judge to review the refusal with a view to overturning this. Unfortunately it is now a matter of arithmetic and working out what is your best option financially. My view, (others may differ), is that if the OOT is refused, it would be better to pay up and put this down as a learning opportunity in Life's Rich Pageant. Yes, a harsh lesson, but English civil law is very harsh, I'm afraid.

PS: Does the sum demanded of £173 include the £98 or is it the sum of the two ?


Agree - thanks for your advice, I think I will submit the OOT and see what happens - as you say this will cost nothing (Apart from me spending time filling in the forms and visit the county court)

If they refuse the application then I'll just have to pay the fine and bailiff fee and lesson learnt!

The £173 was the sum of both (£98 fine and £75 bailiff fee).

In terms of the information I put into the OOT, any suggestions? Should I just keep it simple and explain that I moved address and never received any notices?
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DancingDad
post Sat, 24 Feb 2018 - 08:28
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That's about the level of it, I don't know of any magic formula that guarantees success.
With a caveat about lying...explained on forms what the penalty can be about that, some things that may help...if true.

On OOT, detail any postal redirection or arrangements made to collect post from old address.
You can say things like having moved before the alleged contravention my registration details had not been updated when the PCN was served. This has been corrected. ie put a positive slant rather then "I mucked up totally"
Clearly state you received no notices until bailiffs contacted.
Don't try to discuss or argue the PCN, this is purely about process not the contravention.
You can include evidence if any exists on things like postal redirection
Don't lie.
On Stat Dec...just tick the box and sign (witnessed) nothing else.
This is purely about why you could not send the SD in good time.
Post a draft for comment before sending

AFAIK, as many applications to TEC are rejected because people "spoil" the papers, try to add comments on the PCN for instance, as because councils object.

If nothing else, this will give breathing space to budget for the payout and you never know, it may be accepted.
Which will put you back to PCN stage.
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