contravention code 23c Options

[cream70]

Brother got this in the post last week. No1,he 's convinced
that there was no PCN on attached to his vehicle when he returned to it
although the pics do not comfirm this.
2. he's parked at that location many a times on a sunday and has had
no problems.

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[cream70]

polite bump

[Equalizer]

polite bump

OK - I'll put in a penny'th

1. The top sign for the restriction should be the same as diagram 661.1 (page 56, permitted variants 7.1) this link here -
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/tsmchapter3.pdf However the top sign on the post has the bus is to the side of the "P". It should be underneath. Also the bus on the sign has an extra big window in it (or is it supposed to be a door?) which also varies from the regulation signage. Therefore the sign does not conform. Not the strongest point on its own - but worth throwing in.

2. The PCN says the offence was parking in a "Coach parking bay". This is not so. The only signs and regulations are for Buses. Therefore perhaps "the offence did not occur"?

3. The bays must be of style and design 1028.3 specified here http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113bj.gif On such bays there is a dividing line between bays (but not at the start or end of a lay-by) should be of either two or three lines depending on width. These bays have only two deliniating lines - and the bays really do look very narrow - more designed for cars one would imagine. The coaches barely fit the width of the bays. This can be seen here of Google maps -
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sour...319.61,,0,15.82

4. Which takes me to a good, strong point. All those bays should have the word "BUSES" written alongside them. This is described and illustrated in both the links to the regulations above. None of these bays have that legend painted on the road. So none of those bays are legal bays. Therefore again "the offence did not occur".

An argument would reasonably go that with all these defects and unclearness in the signage - and many other cars making the same honest "mistake" on a Sunday - it would be very reasonable for OP to park there and believe that his parking was perfectly correct.

(An otherwise irrelevent moot point - but the sign right at the bottom seems to restrict only buses from parking overnight. Does that mean cars, lorries etc. are free to park there from Midnight to 8.00am??)

That's at least something to be going on with. Others may delve more deeply into the wording on the PCN and NTO and other issues.

This post has been edited by Equalizer: Wed, 18 Aug 2010 - 20:51

[buttonpusher]

Looking at the sign
If I came upon this I would have interpreted it to be 1) Coaches 8.30am till Midnight
2) Cars 8.30 till 6.30 Mon-Fri
3) Cars 8.30 till 1.30 Saturdays
4) Coaches No parking midnight till 8.00am
Unrestricted Sunday
That's a confusing sign, I wonder if all the other cars were ticketed?

[clark_kent]

Looking at the sign
If I came upon this I would have interpreted it to be 1) Coaches 8.30am till Midnight
2) Cars 8.30 till 6.30 Mon-Fri
3) Cars 8.30 till 1.30 Saturdays
4) Coaches No parking midnight till 8.00am
Unrestricted Sunday
That's a confusing sign, I wonder if all the other cars were ticketed?

Agreed it is confusing and would need DofT approval I think it should have 2 signs one for the 'paid for' hours and one for the 'free' hours as it doesn't it ceases to make sense.

I also do not think WCC can legally issue tickets on the A4202 as it was excluded from their enforcement area in 1994 when it became red route. http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/legResults.as...xtDocId=3119584

[cream70]

Looking at the sign
If I came upon this I would have interpreted it to be 1) Coaches 8.30am till Midnight
2) Cars 8.30 till 6.30 Mon-Fri
3) Cars 8.30 till 1.30 Saturdays
4) Coaches No parking midnight till 8.00am
Unrestricted Sunday
That's a confusing sign, I wonder if all the other cars were ticketed?

You can see in the background in the last picture a car issued a with a pcn and a car about to be issued with a pcn,
so I can assume all the cars there were ticketed.

This post has been edited by cream70: Thu, 19 Aug 2010 - 04:52

[bama]

Looking at the sign
If I came upon this I would have interpreted it to be 1) Coaches 8.30am till Midnight
2) Cars 8.30 till 6.30 Mon-Fri
3) Cars 8.30 till 1.30 Saturdays
4) Coaches No parking midnight till 8.00am
Unrestricted Sunday
That's a confusing sign, I wonder if all the other cars were ticketed?

Agreed it is confusing and would need DofT approval I think it should have 2 signs one for the 'paid for' hours and one for the 'free' hours as it doesn't it ceases to make sense.

I also do not think WCC can legally issue tickets on the A4202 as it was excluded from their enforcement area in 1994 when it became red route. http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/legResults.as...xtDocId=3119584

Good spot !

no subsequent amendment I take it ?

[cream70]

Update:

My Formal representations:

Westminster Council

Formal Representations to
Notice to Owner


I'm appealing PCN: WMXXXXXXXX
On the grounds that:



1. The alleged contravention did not occur.
2. There has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the enforcement authority.


I’m in receipt of the above Notice to Owner, yet I was unaware that a Penalty Charge Notice had been issued to the vehicle for which I am the Registered Keeper.

A Penalty Charge Notice was never handed to the driver or attached to my vehicle.

The signage pertaining to the ‘coach/bus bay’ is confusing to say the least, as can be confirmed by the number of cars I can see being issued with a PCN in one of the photos. This may mislead the motorist into believing that the restriction does not apply on Sundays.

The design of this sign does not conform to diagram 661.1 from the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002.

Therefore for this reason I believe the bay is no-compliant.

The legend ‘Buses’ road markings are missing, from the bay.

Therefore for this reason I believe the bay is non-compliant

I also question the authority of Westminster Council to be issuing tickets along Park lane, as I’m led to believe it was excluded from your enforcement area in 1994 when it became a red route.

Therefore I expect this PCN to be cancelled.

If you still wish to contest this appeal further, I request you supply me with the following:

1) A copy of the original PCN.
2) Dept of Transport approval regarding the signage of this particular bay.
3) The traffic order for this particular bay.
4) A copy of the pay by phone amendment order for the bay.
5) A copy of the amendment order that shows that you have the authority to be charging and issuing Penalty Charge Notices along the A4202 (Park Lane)


MR XXXXXXXX

Westminster's Notice of Rejection:

[clark_kent]

The authorisation doesn't apply as section 2 states it must be backed up by a TMO however the TMO didn't kick in until August as far as I can see.



• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (amendment No.1)
Order 1995 (1995/216)
• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 1996
(1996/192)
• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (Amendment No.1)
Order 1998 (1998/24
• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 2000
(2000/22)
• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 2000
(2000/155)
• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 2002
(2002/156)
• The City of Westminster (Bus Parking Places) (Amendment No.1)
Order 2009 (2009/35)
• The City of Westminster (Bus Parking Places) (Amendment No.2)
Order 2010 (2010/161)

3. The Order also:
(a) prescribes that the method of payment at the bus parking places
made through the Council’s “pay by phone” service provider. User
instructions and information are displayed in the vicinity of each bus
parking place and on the Council’s website:
www.westminster.gov.uk/transportandstreets/parking
The charge and permitted hours will remain unchanged.
(b) corrects minor anomalies between the existing traffic orders and
on-street markings.
4. The Order, which will come into force on 2nd
August 2010, and
other documents giving more detailed articulars of the Order are
available for inspection until the 27th
August 2010 between 9 a.m.
and 5 p.m. on Mondays to Fridays inclusive at One Stop Shop, City
Hall, 62 Victoria Street, London, SW1E 6QP.

This post has been edited by clark_kent: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 - 19:43

[cream70]

and I notice Westminster has kindly reoffered the discount.

[Guest_Bogsy_*]

I don't see anything in that authorisation permitting the sign to be used in conjunction with the bay marking. The authorisation simply allows the council to erect a non prescribed sign to convey a parking restriction. Where a sign is used with a bay marking then it is usual for the authorisation to state that direction 25 TSRGD 2002 applies to the sign in the same manner as if the sign were to diagram 661.1. This then would make it lawful to use the authorised sign in combination with a prescribed bay marking.

[clark_kent]

They have also refused to consider your reps on several points such as the Red route issue and the traffic order. I will draft you a proper appeal to send to PATAS if you want?

[cream70]

They have also refused to consider your reps on several points such as the Red route issue and the traffic order. I will draft you a proper appeal to send to PATAS if you want?

Yes please!

[clark_kent]

They have also refused to consider your reps on several points such as the Red route issue and the traffic order. I will draft you a proper appeal to send to PATAS if you want?

Yes please!

I think the red route is a no go I have done some digging and it seems that the GLA act 1999 gave Tfl the authority to allow local authorities to place 'paid for' bays on GLA roads (red routes) although I expect they could be baffled by bullshit if you tried hard enough the law is very complex. The strongest point now seems to be that the traffic order may have not stated until after the PCN was issued. WCC have also failed in their duty to answer the red route issue which fetters your appeal in my view. I also think the bay markings need buses next to them and as they are 1028.3 bays each bay needs a plate which is not clear on google. The offside of the carriageway still has double red route so which techically covers the entire road so the original TMO would be worth a read.

[clark_kent]

http://www.westminster.gov.uk/workspace/as...-1274889524.pdf

This WCC map also states that the left hand side of Park lane is not controlled by them.

[bama]

Can't see any PCN on the vehicle in those pics. is it just my eyes ?

stick with this one. expect Westminster to fold at a late stage. Clark's appeal will nail it.

[cabbyman]

Is the PCN in a blue envelope under the nearside wiper?

[bama]

could be... strange envelope then..

need OP to comment/show good pics of that segment of w/screen in case its just other stuff.

[cream70]

update:



My notice of appeal:

PATAS



Penalty Charge Notice: WMXXXXXXX

Vehicle Reg Number XXXXXXX

Dear Sir/Madam



I wish to contest the Penalty Charge Notice WMXXXXXXXX issued on the 4/7/210 on the grounds the contravention did not take place.



On the day in question I parked in the location stated on the PCN believing it to be a free red route bay since it is a white bay located on a red route and it was a Sunday.



I did not find a PCN affixed to my vehicle and the first I knew of this penalty was the Notice to Owner although Westminster Council have supplied photos of a PCN tucked under the wiper on my screen it was not affixed when I returned to my vehicle.



Upon receipt of the NTO I returned to the location and found the signage which WCC claim correctly signs the Traffic Order I have contravened.



The signage at the location was not at the time of the contravention compliant with the law since any signage placed to indicate a parking restriction must comply with the TSRGD 2002 and the ‘pay by phone ‘signs do not appear in the TSRGD.



In their response to my formal appeal

Westminster Council have provided a document which they allege gives them authority to use the signs however I dispute this fact for the following reason;

Section 2 states that the sign may only be used on the condition it reflects a corresponding traffic order. However the Traffic Order was not commenced until August 2nd 2010 making the signs non compliant. See below the document

Westminster Council did not supply to me.





a) THE CITY OF WESTMINSTER (BUS PARKING PLACES) (NO. 1) ORDER 2010

1. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that Westminster City Council on 12th July 2010 made the above Order under sections 45, 46, 49 and 124 of and Part IV of Schedule 9 to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as amended.

2. The general effect of the Order will be to revoke and re-enact the provisions of the following orders relating to existing paid-for bus and coach parking places in the City of Westminster:

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (amendment No.1) Order 1995 (1995/216)

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 1996 (1996/192)

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (Amendment No.1) Order 1998 (1998/24

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 2000 (2000/22)

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 2000 (2000/155)

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 2002 (2002/156)

• The City of Westminster (Bus Parking Places) (Amendment No.1) Order 2009 (2009/35)

• The City of Westminster (Bus Parking Places) (Amendment No.2) Order 2010 (2010/161)

3. The Order also:

(a) prescribes that the method of payment at the bus parking places made through the Council’s “pay by phone” service provider. User instructions and information are displayed in the vicinity of each bus parking place and on the Council’s website:

www.westminster.gov.uk/transportandstreets/parking

The charge and permitted hours will remain unchanged.

(b) Corrects minor anomalies between the existing traffic orders and on-street markings.

4. The Order, which will come into force on 2nd August 2010, and other documents giving more detailed articulars of the Order are available for inspection until the 27th August 2010 between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. on Mondays to Fridays inclusive at One Stop Shop, City Hall, 62 Victoria Street, London, SW1E 6QP.



In addition the bay in which I parked was marked as a TSRGD diagram 1028.3 which should be marked for a ‘coach bay’ with the road legend ‘buses’ when used with a variant of the diag 661.1 that includes the bus symbol.



The bays at the location I parked are also individual bays and not a diag. 1032 parking place with individually marked spaces and should therefore each have its own time plate. The bay in which I parked has no sign adjacent to it at all and is therefore not restricted.



I have also raised the matter with WCC that the road in which I parked was a designated Red Route and had been removed from the WCC Special Parking Area by the The Road Traffic (Special Parking Area) (City of Westminster) Order 1994 Schedule 1 and WCC had no authority to enforce it parking restrictions upon it. WCC failed to address this matter in my formal representation which I consider an impropriety as well as not supplying me with the traffic order I requested. If they have statutory powers to enforce on designated GLA roads they should have provided the information as requested



WCC also give the members of the public seeking information on parking misleading advice. Prior to setting out on my journey that day I had checked the parking restrictions on the WCC website. The map that is provided clearly shows the western side of Park Lane is not controlled by WCC. http://www.westminster.gov.uk/workspace/as...-1274889524.pdf





Printed copy of map enclosed.

The TFL website also states that white bays on red routes are either free parking or loading bays available at any time.





To assist me further in my appeal, I request Westminster Council supply me with the:



1) The traffic order for the this particular bays

2) A copy of the traffic order that shows that Westminster Council has the authority to be charging and issuing Penalty Charge Notices along theA4202 (Park Lane)



I also request, that my appeal is not disposed of without a hearing.



I have enclosed Westminster Council’s Notice of Rejection and all the documents they sent with it.







Yours faithfully



XXXX

Patas response:







I notice the adjudicator ignored my request for the appeal not

to be disposed of.

Westminster also unlawfully served us with a certificate charge about week after the appeal was registered with PATAS. We did not take the bait
and kept quiet until they realised they had no hope of winning.

Many thanks to CK with the appeal.

We will be applying for costs.

[clark_kent]

update:



My notice of appeal:

PATAS



Penalty Charge Notice: WMXXXXXXX

Vehicle Reg Number XXXXXXX

Dear Sir/Madam



I wish to contest the Penalty Charge Notice WMXXXXXXXX issued on the 4/7/210 on the grounds the contravention did not take place.



On the day in question I parked in the location stated on the PCN believing it to be a free red route bay since it is a white bay located on a red route and it was a Sunday.



I did not find a PCN affixed to my vehicle and the first I knew of this penalty was the Notice to Owner although Westminster Council have supplied photos of a PCN tucked under the wiper on my screen it was not affixed when I returned to my vehicle.



Upon receipt of the NTO I returned to the location and found the signage which WCC claim correctly signs the Traffic Order I have contravened.



The signage at the location was not at the time of the contravention compliant with the law since any signage placed to indicate a parking restriction must comply with the TSRGD 2002 and the ‘pay by phone ‘signs do not appear in the TSRGD.



In their response to my formal appeal

Westminster Council have provided a document which they allege gives them authority to use the signs however I dispute this fact for the following reason;

Section 2 states that the sign may only be used on the condition it reflects a corresponding traffic order. However the Traffic Order was not commenced until August 2nd 2010 making the signs non compliant. See below the document

Westminster Council did not supply to me.





a) THE CITY OF WESTMINSTER (BUS PARKING PLACES) (NO. 1) ORDER 2010

1. NOTICE IS HEREBY GIVEN that Westminster City Council on 12th July 2010 made the above Order under sections 45, 46, 49 and 124 of and Part IV of Schedule 9 to the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 as amended.

2. The general effect of the Order will be to revoke and re-enact the provisions of the following orders relating to existing paid-for bus and coach parking places in the City of Westminster:

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (amendment No.1) Order 1995 (1995/216)

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 1996 (1996/192)

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (Amendment No.1) Order 1998 (1998/24

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 2000 (2000/22)

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 2000 (2000/155)

• The City of Westminster (Coach Parking Places) (No.1) Order 2002 (2002/156)

• The City of Westminster (Bus Parking Places) (Amendment No.1) Order 2009 (2009/35)

• The City of Westminster (Bus Parking Places) (Amendment No.2) Order 2010 (2010/161)

3. The Order also:

(a) prescribes that the method of payment at the bus parking places made through the Council’s “pay by phone” service provider. User instructions and information are displayed in the vicinity of each bus parking place and on the Council’s website:

www.westminster.gov.uk/transportandstreets/parking

The charge and permitted hours will remain unchanged.

(b) Corrects minor anomalies between the existing traffic orders and on-street markings.

4. The Order, which will come into force on 2nd August 2010, and other documents giving more detailed articulars of the Order are available for inspection until the 27th August 2010 between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. on Mondays to Fridays inclusive at One Stop Shop, City Hall, 62 Victoria Street, London, SW1E 6QP.



In addition the bay in which I parked was marked as a TSRGD diagram 1028.3 which should be marked for a ‘coach bay’ with the road legend ‘buses’ when used with a variant of the diag 661.1 that includes the bus symbol.



The bays at the location I parked are also individual bays and not a diag. 1032 parking place with individually marked spaces and should therefore each have its own time plate. The bay in which I parked has no sign adjacent to it at all and is therefore not restricted.



I have also raised the matter with WCC that the road in which I parked was a designated Red Route and had been removed from the WCC Special Parking Area by the The Road Traffic (Special Parking Area) (City of Westminster) Order 1994 Schedule 1 and WCC had no authority to enforce it parking restrictions upon it. WCC failed to address this matter in my formal representation which I consider an impropriety as well as not supplying me with the traffic order I requested. If they have statutory powers to enforce on designated GLA roads they should have provided the information as requested



WCC also give the members of the public seeking information on parking misleading advice. Prior to setting out on my journey that day I had checked the parking restrictions on the WCC website. The map that is provided clearly shows the western side of Park Lane is not controlled by WCC. http://www.westminster.gov.uk/workspace/as...-1274889524.pdf





Printed copy of map enclosed.

The TFL website also states that white bays on red routes are either free parking or loading bays available at any time.





To assist me further in my appeal, I request Westminster Council supply me with the:



1) The traffic order for the this particular bays

2) A copy of the traffic order that shows that Westminster Council has the authority to be charging and issuing Penalty Charge Notices along theA4202 (Park Lane)



I also request, that my appeal is not disposed of without a hearing.



I have enclosed Westminster Council’s Notice of Rejection and all the documents they sent with it.







Yours faithfully



XXXX

Patas response:







I notice the adjudicator ignored my request for the appeal not

to be disposed of.

Westminster also unlawfully served us with a certificate charge about week after the appeal was registered with PATAS. We did not take the bait
and kept quiet until they realised they had no hope of winning.

Many thanks to CK with the appeal.

We will be applying for costs.

Thanks, shame they bottled it though they have dished a few of these PCNs out would have been good to get a formal win.