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NCP Fine received - 30 days after 'offence'
Peterpiper2019
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 20:14
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Hello all, hoping for some help please.

Registered keeper of the car received a parking notice from NCP today. Offence took place on 8th August, letter from NCP is dated 10th September.

Background:

The driver of the car at the time isn't the registered keeper.

Driver was at the gym next to the car park. Gym membership entitles user to 2 hours free parking. No ticket is needed. User enters reg into iPad at the gym to confirm 2 hours.

Driver entered @ 17:30 & exited @ 18:30. So 1 hour under the allowed time by the gym.

Registered keeper passed notice on to driver today. Registered keeper intends on replying to the notice with the name & address of the driver.

Driver intends on contacting NCP to raise an appeal as;

a) gym membership entitles user to 2 hours parking. NCP can verify the driver uses the car park every day at the same time.

b) notice is dated 30 days after the 'offence' took part.

Looking for guidance on the likelyhood for the driver not having to pay any fine....

Thanks in advance!
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post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 20:14
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Jlc
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 21:11
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Stop. Do not name the driver.

The PCN will not be using PoFA to pursue the keeper.

The KEEPER appeals:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give notice of keeper liability as prescribed by section 9 (2) (f) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

I was not driving. There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc


First class mail with free certificate of posting from a Post office

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 21:11


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Peterpiper2019
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 22:06
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QUOTE (Peterpiper2019 @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 21:14) *
Hello all, hoping for some help please.

Registered keeper of the car received a parking notice from NCP today. Offence took place on 8th August, letter from NCP is dated 10th September.

Background:

The driver of the car at the time isn't the registered keeper.

Driver was at the gym next to the car park. Gym membership entitles user to 2 hours free parking. No ticket is needed. User enters reg into iPad at the gym to confirm 2 hours.

Driver entered @ 17:30 & exited @ 18:30. So 1 hour under the allowed time by the gym.

Registered keeper passed notice on to driver today. Registered keeper intends on replying to the notice with the name & address of the driver.

Driver intends on contacting NCP to raise an appeal as;

a) gym membership entitles user to 2 hours parking. NCP can verify the driver uses the car park every day at the same time.

b) notice is dated 30 days after the 'offence' took part.

Looking for guidance on the likelyhood for the driver not having to pay any fine....

Thanks in advance!


The driver gets 2 hours free parking due to their gym membership though. Surely they need to identify themselves in order to prove this is accurate or get the gym to testify to the 2 hours parking (NCP should be fully aware of this)


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Jlc
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 22:43
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I presume the driver didn’t enter their vrm as required.

NCP have no incentive to cancel and they won’t. The gym might be able to ‘force’ them.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 22:45
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Identifying the driver makes no sense whatsoever and is the worst possible thing to do

You're throwing away a bomb-proof appeal point for one that has no chance of success

NCP has given the registered keeper a Get Out of Jail Free card
It sent the Notice to Keeper too late to have the right to recover payment from the keeper if it doesn't know who was driving

As long as NCP doesn't have a name and address for the driver, it cannot recover a payment from anybody
Whether the driver was entitled to park or not is irrelevant

An appeal from the driver is guaranteed to lose because he/she didn't register the vehicle on that occasion
NCP and POPLA, the independent appeal body, will certainly rule that the Parking Notice was issued correctly

The fact that the driver is entitled to 2 hours parking and usually registers makes no difference


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Peterpiper2019
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 06:30
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 12 Sep 2019 - 23:45) *
Identifying the driver makes no sense whatsoever and is the worst possible thing to do

You're throwing away a bomb-proof appeal point for one that has no chance of success

NCP has given the registered keeper a Get Out of Jail Free card
It sent the Notice to Keeper too late to have the right to recover payment from the keeper if it doesn't know who was driving

As long as NCP doesn't have a name and address for the driver, it cannot recover a payment from anybody
Whether the driver was entitled to park or not is irrelevant

An appeal from the driver is guaranteed to lose because he/she didn't register the vehicle on that occasion
NCP and POPLA, the independent appeal body, will certainly rule that the Parking Notice was issued correctly

The fact that the driver is entitled to 2 hours parking and usually registers makes no difference


Is that based solely on the fact that the ‘offence’ took place on 8th August & the notice was dated the 10th September? How many days from the ‘offence’ do they have to send the notice?

The keeper is going to hold fire identifying the driver.

So basically, if I use the suggested appeal tactic, I can’t lose?

Sorry for the basic questions!

Before I send an email to NCP. Is there a full template that I can use, or is the text in the first reply sufficient?

Thanks again!

This post has been edited by Peterpiper2019: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 07:34
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Jlc
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 07:35
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For ANPR detection they have 14 days to deliver the NtK to the keeper. You'll find the PCN will make no reference to Protection of Freedoms Act and will state the driver is liable...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ManxRed
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 07:40
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The appeal Jlc has provided is a winner. Even if rejected by NCP, a subsequent POPLA appeal based on a slightly expanded version of this appeal point will win.

Its a no-brainer.


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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Peterpiper2019
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 08:07
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QUOTE (ManxRed @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 08:40) *
The appeal Jlc has provided is a winner. Even if rejected by NCP, a subsequent POPLA appeal based on a slightly expanded version of this appeal point will win.

Its a no-brainer.


Thanks everybody for the info.

Final question for now, the letter directs me to the NCP website to fill in an appeal form. I take it this is fine to do as the keeper and to just add the suggested text to the appeal text box?
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ManxRed
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 08:15
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Just watch out for booby trapped drop down boxes that default to make you declare to being the driver at the time.


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Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 08:37
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Take screenshots of each page and save them
That way you can prove exactly what was submitted.
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ostell
post Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 12:53
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The correct appeal is :


Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc

I haven't seen the actual NTK so the appeal in post #2 may not be correct

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 12:53
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Mr Mustard
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 08:16
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QUOTE (ostell @ Fri, 13 Sep 2019 - 13:53) *
The correct appeal is :


Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc

I haven't seen the actual NTK so the appeal in post #2 may not be correct


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Jlc
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 08:50
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Either will work as 9(2)(f) isn't there - but I prefer pointing out the 14 days...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 09:05
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Doesn't he want to make it more explicit that he wasn't the driver ?
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ostell
post Sat, 14 Sep 2019 - 19:38
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If that is true then:

I was not the driver at the time and as there is no legal requirement to name the driver I will not be doing so
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Peterpiper2019
post Thu, 19 Sep 2019 - 14:56
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Thanks for the replies all. Not heard back from NCP yet, which based on how late their ‘fine’ arrived, isn’t a huge surprise!
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