UKCPM PCN on my apartment block Options

[e-amaha]

Hi guys!

I'm new here, and I believe I found out about the forum a bit late in the game, but here's my situation.

I live in an apartment block where each flat has one parking spot only. There are UKCPM signs in the parking lot (which is private and belongs to the flats) stating that a permit must be shown at all times.

My car sits in my bay (53), with the permit always displayed, but recently my wife had to get a car for her and we had nowhere to park. We spoke to a neighbor and she agreed to let us use her bay (42) because she doesn't have a car. I offered to pay her every month £30, and she agreed. Everything was done mainly via text messages which I still have.

Since the neighbor don't have a car, she also don't have a permit, but we needed a place to leave my wife's car straight away, and we started using bay 42 (as agreed by our neighbor). The very next day we got a PCN for not having a permit displayed in her car. I didn't think much of it, and sent two letters together to UKCPM, appealing the PCN.

The first letter was in my name (the car is not in my name, for clarification) and it was a standard appeal letter you get from the internet, with the reasoning being that I was authorized by the flat tenant to park there, and that a permit was still being issued. The second letter was attached to the first one, and was in my neighbors name:

[her address]

UK Car Park Management
[their address]

23 May 2018

Dear Sir/Madam,

Re: Parking ticket [redacted] / Vehicle Reg [redacted]

As per the tenancy contract I am the legal holder of the parking bay associated to the flat, and hereby state that the [redacted car], license register [redacted] and associated to [redacted] is authorized – and was authorized at the time of the parking ticket – to park at bay 42, [redacted address].

She signed the letter and I sent it to them.

Now, some things to note:
1. I didn't see her lease contract, but mine does not mention anything about permits being required to park. I'll try to see the her contract as soon as I can.
2. I STILL don't have the permit, but I left a note in the car to contact me while I wait for the permit, no issues so far. My neighbor is being very unresponsive recently, and I'm afraid she won't order the permit for me to display in the car (don't know the reason). I don't know if this can be an issue when appealing.
3. I still think I can get a signed letter from her, so this is an option.

Back to the topic, fast forward to yesterday and I got a letter from UKCPM saying the appeal was unsuccessful and that I had to pay £60 upfront or £100 later. I've uploaded the redacted letter so you can take a look. [attachment=56323:CPM_Lett...Redacted.jpg] and [attachment=56324:CPM_Letter_2.jpg]

I already read that I should not appeal through IAS, so I probably won't be doing this. I've read other similar cases here, but most of them were from people in their own parking bay, which is not my case.

We had a friend of ours (and neighbor) that parked in another bay (not his bay, without the owner consent AFAIK), ignored the letters and was taken to court, where he lost. My case is not exactly the same, but the fact that they took him to court and won scares me a bit.

I appreciate any advice.
Thanks!

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[Jlc]

First things first - assume they will take this to court, they are very litigious as noted. Secondly, I wouldn't park in that bay without a permit until the situation is cleared up - they will happily dish out tickets and issue a claim for hundreds, if not, thousands of pounds.

For you own bay (is this demised, on a plan for example - although if they are numbered to match property numbers this potentially assists), there may be a strong argument you do not need to display a permit. You can argue that you do for convenience rather than any need as your lease has primary over the signs.

For the other bay it can get a little more complex. It sounds like your neighbour is happy to take the cash but is not so keen to get involved in the permit or legal situation? When you say one of the letter is in your neighbours name what does this mean? I presume PCN's have been placed on the car and then appeals submitted? If they have been given your neighbours details then they could be facing the claim - so they need to get a bit more proactive...

If the matter does go to court the outcome is not straightforward as it may be decide that you cannot rely on someone else's lease and the signs do take primacy.

Wait a few hours as others will be along with more residential knowledge. Specifics in the leases would be critical - there's potentially an argument that the parking company do not have sufficient rights on any of the bays but it still may be decided at court that the signs do apply.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 09:19

[ostell]

See if you can get a copy of the lease from your landlord and see what it says about parking. Work on the principle that the lease for the other flat will be the same.

You could write to CPM and ask to see the contract they have with the landholder of space 42 to enforce parking there, as you also have a contract for the same space allowing you to park there without the necessity of displaying a permit or making a payment if you do not.

Is the lady with space 42 a tenant or an owner?

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 09:21

[Jlc]

We had a friend of ours (and neighbor) that parked in another bay (not his bay, without the owner consent AFAIK), ignored the letters and was taken to court, where he lost. My case is not exactly the same, but the fact that they took him to court and won scares me a bit.

Don't be scared - that's part of their business model. But you (and others?) will need to be prepared to fight your corner and attend a hearing. Not having 'consent' is arguably the situation the parking company is there to enforce - there's an argument the signs do apply in those circumstances.

[e-amaha]

When you say one of the letter is in your neighbours name what does this mean?

The quoted letter in my original post was in her name, stating that I can park in her bay, and it was signed by her. I attached that letter to my appeal (which was in my name) in order to "prove" that I was not breaking the rules.

Not having 'consent' is arguably the situation the parking company is there to enforce - there's an argument the signs do apply in those circumstances.

I agree, he was wrong in my opinion and that's why he lost. But since I have the consent I believe I have grounds to stand on. Should I get anything else from my neighbour? In the letter I attached to my appeal she is giving me consent to park there as well.

Is the lady with space 42 a tenant or an owner?

She is also a tenant. I have a copy of my contract and it doesn't say anything about permit or anything like that.

This post has been edited by e-amaha: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 - 09:30

[ostell]

But does 42 also have the right to park there without permit, and is this a right that the landlord, presumably the lessee, also has. Need to get all loose ends tidies up.

[e-amaha]

But does 42 also have the right to park there without permit, and is this a right that the landlord, presumably the lessee, also has. Need to get all loose ends tidies up.

Probably that is the case, you're right. And I even told her that if she ever gets a car I'll just hand the permit back (once she actually request it) and find somewhere else.

And as an overall question, is POPLA recommended?

[Eljayjay]

On the presumption that your landlord owns the head lease to your flat, you need to get a copy of that lease so that you can find out what it says about parking.

If your landlord will not provide you with a copy, you can obtain a copy from the Land Registry by completing a form OC2 and paying a fee.

When you have a copy of the head lease, let us know and I or someone else will tell you what to search it for.

Your neighbour's flat will almost certainly have an identical head lease.

I presume you have a tenancy agreement. You need to find out what that says about parking too. Post what you find here.

You need to ask your neighbour for sight of her tenancy agreement so that you can find out what that says about parking too.

[e-amaha]

On the presumption that your landlord owns the head lease to your flat, you need to get a copy of that lease so that you can find out what it says about parking.

If your landlord will not provide you with a copy, you can obtain a copy from the Land Registry by completing a form OC2 and paying a fee.

When you have a copy of the head lease, let us know and I or someone else will tell you what to search it for.

Your neighbour's flat will almost certainly have an identical head lease.

I presume you have a tenancy agreement. You need to find out what that says about parking too. Post what you find here.

You need to ask your neighbour for sight of her tenancy agreement so that you can find out what that says about parking too.

Oh, I see what you mean now, sorry. Yes, what I have in the tenancy agreement only, which is at home. As soon as I get home today I'll look for it and search for anything related to parking.

My tenancy is through an agency, so I believe contacting them would also be a plausible option.

Once I get the documents I'll update it here.

Thakns!

[Jlc]

And as an overall question, is POPLA recommended?

Doesn't apply here as they are an IPC accredited operator. (POPLA is BPA)

But the IPC equivalent, the IAS, won't help you.

[e-amaha]

Hi guys.

Some updates since yesterday:

1. My neighbour responded, said she'll sort the permit today and apologized saying she was busy the last few days. I'm still no sure about that, she's not very reliable and doesn't seem very concerned with my problems.
If she finally get the permit, then one less thing to worry, but I still feel that I need her for me to win in the court (if it goes to that point).
Should I ask her if I can take a look (and maybe copy) her tenancy agreement? Can I have access to the head lease on her property somehow?

Quick edit to add: Should I have a letter signed by her stating that I am allowed to use her bay? I think that this I could get, because I can write the letter and just knock on her door and ask for a signature.

Edit 2: I'm leaving on holidays tomorrow, two weeks out of the country. This means I'll probably go over the first 14 days where I can pay £60 for the PCN. I'm considering paying it to avoid losing in the court if I depend too much on my neighbour's good will.

2. I contacted my agency and they said they'll get the head lease and e-mail me, still didn't get it, so I might check again today.

3. About my Tenancy Agreement, there's no mention of anything related to parking or the parking bay. I only have a physical copy, so I'll put some transcripts of it:
Property: The dwelling known as [redacted address]

Contents: The fixtures and fittings at the Property together with any furniture, carpets, curtains and other effects listed in the Inventory
Note: Nothing in the Inventory mentions parking.

Under Rent & charges only water, gas, telephone and sewerage are mentioned.

I took a picture of section Use of the Property, but it mentions nothing. Also, the head lease was not attached to this, so I'm still waiting.

[attachment=56342:IMG_2018...9_095542.jpg]


Thanks!

This post has been edited by e-amaha: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 09:23

[e-amaha]

I just got the important bits of the head lease on my email, so here are them:

[attachment=56344:Headlease_1.jpg] [attachment=56345:Headlease_3.jpg]

It seems that I can use it without any need for permit, from the headlease.

[Eljayjay]

The bits of the head lease posted by you help your case enormously. The head lease of your neighbour’s property will almost certainly be identically worded (except, of course, when it comes to the number of the parking space). On your return from holiday, make another post, and I shall tell you what else you should look for in the lease.

In the meantime…

I am not sure how much you know.

You and your wife have entered into a murky world where the parking companies’ actions, particularly in residential parking situations, are governed by bluff.

UKCPM will do its utmost to convince your wife that she faces dire consequences if she does not give in to its demands. For example, it will threaten her with a County Court Judgement. In fact, a CCJ cannot be awarded against her unless she loses in a court hearing and, even then, a CCJ will not be awarded against her if she pays within the deadline of 28 or 31 days – I can never remember the exact number but you or your wife can google it.

Often, the parking company will take out a formal claim, but discontinue it at the last possible moment. It will expect its victim to dread going to court so much that he or she will cave in at some point. If the parking company goes all the way and your wife finds herself in court over the matter, it is only a civil court. Furthermore, the case would be about nothing more than a disputed invoice (for that is all a parking charge notice is). A court is just a place where the parties present their evidence, say their bits, and a judge then makes a decision on their behalf. In this event, my advice to your wife would be to embrace the experience.

The really good news is that residential parking cases are usually very easily defended.

Having said all of that, if your wife’s case does go to court, prior to issuing a formal claim, the parking company would have to issue your wife with a letter before claim/letter of claim – they are the same thing. The parking company must then give her 30 days to request any relevant information and documents.

What your wife could do is write to the parking company now to request the information and documents. A draft letter for this purpose is provided below.

If the parking company does not reply to the letter itself, then your wife would have lost nothing. Furthermore, as a response to whatever else you receive from them up to an including the letter before claim/letter of claim, your wife could simply send a slightly modified version of the draft letter.

Alternatively, in the very unlikely event that the parking company provides a complete response to the draft letter, it will have given you some of the documentation which you would otherwise have had to obtain.

If I were your wife, I would send the letter today – using first class mail, handing it in at a Post Office counter, and requesting a free certificate of posting – and then go and enjoy my holiday.



Dear <salutation>,

Thank you for your <letter/email/parking charge notice> reference <their ref> of <date> in relation to a parking issue at <location>.

I am the registered keeper of the vehicle on which the parking charge notice was placed.

If your company wishes to continue its attempt to recover the alleged parking charge, it will need to establish its right to the money through the County Court.

Before taking court action against me, however, in accordance with The Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims as made by the Master of the Rolls as Head of Civil Justice, your company must send me a letter of claim.

The purpose of The Pre-Action Protocol is to give both your company and myself an opportunity to narrow the issues between us. That being so, after the letter of claim has been sent, your company must give me a window of time in which to respond to the letter and to request information and documents from it.

If your company would like me to reconsider my position before we get to that stage, it may wish to provide now the information and documents, which I shall otherwise request later, so that we can attempt to narrow the issues between us now. If so, please arrange for your company to send me the following:-

<tab> the parking agreement between your company and the owner or occupier of the land purporting to grant the right to your company to charge for parking on the land;

<tab> the site plan provided by your company to its accredited trade association;

<tab> a copy of the written contract for the alleged debt;

<tab> the accredited trade association’s code of practice to which your company claims to adhere;

<tab> if there is a lease governing parking on the land, a copy of the lease;

<tab> if a lease exists and contains express provision to allow your company to operate a parking scheme on the land, a note of the specific clauses in the lease applicable to this situation;

<tab> if a lease exists and any rules or regulations have been made in accordance with its provisions to allow your company to operate a parking scheme on the land:-

<tab><tab> (a) a copy of those rules or regulations duly signed, etc. by the person(s) who made them; and
<tab><tab> (b) a note of the specific clauses in the lease in accordance with which those rules or regulations were made;

<tab> if a lease exists and it granted individual rights to park on the land to a particular person, e.g. the lessee, a note of the name and address of that person and a copy of the instrument which either transferred those individual rights from that person to your company or transferred a share of those individual rights from that person to your company – if there is more than one such person, please provide the same information and documentation for each of them;

<tab> if a lease exists and its terms do not permit third parties, e.g. your company, to enforce the lease’s terms, a note explaining how your company has concluded that it has acquired such a right;

<tab> if a lease exists and your company’s parking scheme has not been introduced in accordance with its provisions, a note explaining how your company has concluded that its alleged parking contract with the driver has acquired primacy of contract over the lease; and

<tab> notes giving details of the due diligence process undertaken by your company to ensure that not only the contract between your company and its principal but also the purported contract between your company and the driver met the “Implied term about care and skill” requirement contained in the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.

Of course, I am sure that, like me, your company has great respect for the Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims and, particularly, its aims as expressed in its paragraph 2. In these circumstances, I am sure that your company would like to narrow and, if at all possible, resolve the issues between us by providing the information and documents requested above at the earliest possible opportunity.

In that event, I shall gladly reconsider my position on receipt of them.

As I am sure you will realise, in the event that your company does not provide the information and documents prior to court action being taken against me, I shall apply to the court for your company’s claim to be struck out for its failure to comply with The Protocol.

Furthermore, in the event of court action being taken against me, I shall launch a counterclaim against your company.

I look forward to receiving your reply.

Yours sincerely,

[ostell]

I like that !!!

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 - 10:51

[e-amaha]

Thanks, Eljayjay! I'm already getting the letter ready and will send it today.

What will I need from my neighbour to have my case stand ground? Copy of her headlease? A letter were she acknowledges that she allowed me to park there?

Thanks!

[Eljayjay]

I am glad you like the draft.

I am also glad that ostell likes it - ostell’s a regular for whom I have much respect.

The parking company should provide a copy of your neighbour’s flat’s headlease.

As regards what you need from your neighbour, it would probably be a good idea to draw up a short agreement signed by her/him, you and your wife.

[e-amaha]

I am glad you like the draft.

I am also glad that ostell likes it - ostell’s a regular for whom I have much respect.

The parking company should provide a copy of your neighbour’s flat’s headlease.

As regards what you need from your neighbour, it would probably be a good idea to draw up a short agreement signed by her/him, you and your wife.

OK, I'll have a small agreement printed out and signed by both parties, in case we go to court.

Thanks!

[ostell]

Make sure you confirm that the agreement has been in effect since it was first started so that it predates the PCN. Otherwise it gives them an excuse to say there was no agreement in place when they issued the ticket.

[e-amaha]

Hi guys, an update after the holidays.

I'm back for two weeks now and today got a letter in the mail. The letter seems to be still from CPM and seems to be a standard one they send to people who didn't pay them.

Based on previous post I believe I should just ignore this, as they have ignored the last letter I sent. It is still addressed to me instead of my wife, so I believe they didn't even read my letter. There's a form on the back for Transfer of Liability, should I fill it and send?

I've attached two pics of the letter here, but had to remove some old attachments.

Front:

Back:

I appreciate your help!

[Redivi]

I would do nothing now except file but ignore unless an actual Letter Before Claim arrives

You've acted reasonably by engaging with UKCPM

The last thing you want to do is fill in that Transfer of Liability form

As long as they don't know who was driving, they must meet the conditions of the Protection of Freedoms Act to recover payment from the keeper
POFA also prevents them recovering more than the original parking charge

If they know who was driving, all their additional charges like debt collector costs come into play