PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Wandsworth Council J31, Entering and stopping in a junction box when prohibited
LMN
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 12:26
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Member No.: 60,884



I wonder if someone can help me.
I have received a Penalty Charge Notice from Wandsworth Council.
The allege traffic contravention
“31 J Entering and stopping in a junction box when prohibited”
At 15:05:11.263 I entered the YBJ as the traffic in front was moving and the traffic light was green I had a reasonable expectation of being able to clear the YBJ without stopping
At 15:05:19.593 the traffic light turns amber while I was still in motion
At the most I could have been stopped in YBJ for 8 seconds
Do I have any chances appealing?
https://youtu.be/-g8jKEbh3zc

Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 12:26
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Incandescent
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 18:17
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 12,118
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



Your photos are no good as they come up too small and can't be enlarged. Use a hosting site as outlined here: -

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858

However nothing you've said so far really has the basis for an appeal. The whole point of YBJs is not to charge into them assuming everything will keep moving; it very often doesn't so you end up like a player in a game of musical chairs who fails to find a seat when the music stops. A stop of 8 seconds would not normally be considered de minimis at adjudication, but it would depend on how much of your car was in the box.Anyway, this argument won't be considered by the council, only at London Tribunals, and with the full PCN penalty in play.

Other appeals can be for errors in the PCN and have succeeded in the past, so we must see the PCN to give full advice.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 18:19
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LMN
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 09:26
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Member No.: 60,884



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 19:17) *
Your photos are no good as they come up too small and can't be enlarged. Use a hosting site as outlined here: -

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=36858

However nothing you've said so far really has the basis for an appeal. The whole point of YBJs is not to charge into them assuming everything will keep moving; it very often doesn't so you end up like a player in a game of musical chairs who fails to find a seat when the music stops. A stop of 8 seconds would not normally be considered de minimis at adjudication, but it would depend on how much of your car was in the box.Anyway, this argument won't be considered by the council, only at London Tribunals, and with the full PCN penalty in play.

Other appeals can be for errors in the PCN and have succeeded in the past, so we must see the PCN to give full advice.


Hi Incandescent
Many thanks for having a look at this and for the advice
I entered the YBJ at 15.05.10.982
There was a red bus in front and the traffic was moving
I had reasonable expectation that I will clear the YBH (Wrong thing to do –agree)
I was stationary in the YBJ from 15.05.20 to 15.05.26 = 6 seconds. The video is on YouTube (https://youtu.be/-g8jKEbh3zc)
May be front 1/3 of the car was outside the YBJ
I have attached the PCN as suggested followed the guide lines that you sent but I am still having problems uploading the pcn "Upload failed The file was larger than the available space"
I will try that later on will get some help from someone
Once again with many thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 09:34
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,552
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Ue an external site for pics such as Imgur or Flickr and post the BBCode links.

You video is jerky and hard to watch but it looks like you don't have much of a case I'm afraid on the contravention - best bet is time but they tend to clamp down after 2-3 secs. Maybe something on PCN.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LMN
post Mon, 16 Jul 2018 - 08:25
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Member No.: 60,884



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 10:34) *
Ue an external site for pics such as Imgur or Flickr and post the BBCode links.

You video is jerky and hard to watch but it looks like you don't have much of a case I'm afraid on the contravention - best bet is time but they tend to clamp down after 2-3 secs. Maybe something on PCN.

Many thanks
Not very clever in uploading images here
Have tried this links Not sure if that will happen
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2d95wfq&s=9
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=16lkx74&s=9
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LMN
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 05:14
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Member No.: 60,884



I have been reading threads on J31
I was just wandering if the argument by Hippocrates way back in 2012 has any strength
“1. The PCN is non-compliant for the following reasons:

“1. The PCN is non-compliant for the following reasons:

b) Under MAKING REPRESENTATIONS the PCN mis-states the representations period as the payment period. It does this on four occasions. The two periods are entirely different and this error renders the PCN unenforceable.

c) The instruction: If you think one or other of the grounds below applies, please indicate which one by ticking the box clearly limits the number of available grounds on which to make a representation to one. As per c) above, this flies in the face of Schedule 1 of the relevant legislation.

2. The Law and The Highway Code.

a) I note that the contravention which the Appellant is alleged to have committed is described as "Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited". The alleged contravention is poorly described in that it is clearly not possible to enter the box and stop at the same time; but, irrespective of this, the Authority still have to satisfactorily prove the "when prohibited" aspect of the allegation.

In this respect, the Authority appear to base their case on rule 174 of the Highway Code, which states @174:-:

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road. You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.


In fact, Regulation 29(2) actually states that the YBJ markings convey the prohibition given in Part II of Schedule 19 of the TSRGD 2002 as amended. However, Part II of Schedule 19 describes two YBJ contraventions. The one with which most are familiar, and that Transport for London claim establishes the contravention is this one in Section 7 Part II of Schedule 19 which states:
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LMN
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 05:20
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Member No.: 60,884



I have been reading threads on J31
I was just wandering if the argument by Hippocrates way back in 2012 has any strength
“1. The PCN is non-compliant for the following reasons:

“1. The PCN is non-compliant for the following reasons:

b) Under MAKING REPRESENTATIONS the PCN mis-states the representations period as the payment period. It does this on four occasions. The two periods are entirely different and this error renders the PCN unenforceable.

c) The instruction: If you think one or other of the grounds below applies, please indicate which one by ticking the box clearly limits the number of available grounds on which to make a representation to one. As per c) above, this flies in the face of Schedule 1 of the relevant legislation.

2. The Law and The Highway Code.

a) I note that the contravention which the Appellant is alleged to have committed is described as "Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited". The alleged contravention is poorly described in that it is clearly not possible to enter the box and stop at the same time; but, irrespective of this, the Authority still have to satisfactorily prove the "when prohibited" aspect of the allegation.

In this respect, the Authority appear to base their case on rule 174 of the Highway Code, which states @174:-:

Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road. You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right. At signalled roundabouts you MUST NOT enter the box unless you can cross over it completely without stopping.


In fact, Regulation 29(2) actually states that the YBJ markings convey the prohibition given in Part II of Schedule 19 of the TSRGD 2002 as amended. However, Part II of Schedule 19 describes two YBJ contraventions. The one with which most are familiar, and that Transport for London claim establishes the contravention is this one in Section 7 Part II of Schedule 19 which states:


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...rt=#entry842234
Continued from previous
7 (1) Subject to paragraph 9, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043, 1044 and 1044.1 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

However, Section 8 of Part II of Schedule 19 also describes a YBJ contravention:

8. Subject to paragraph 9, the road marking shown in diagram 1044.2 shall convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.

I refer to the highlighted sections and ask you to note the difference between the two. Only one, Section 8, indicates that there is a contravention if one has to stop because the exit is not clear, and this is not the section that applies in this case. Why? Because Diagram 1044.2 indicates a YBJ that is installed in conjunction with sign numbers 615 and 811, which are the priority over / give way to oncoming vehicles signs, placed where the road is narrow or there is limited visibility. These latter two signs are not in place at the location of the alleged contravention.

It is self evident why Section 8 is logical – if one blocks the junction, one blocks the entire road. But, this does not apply in this case. Section 7 does, and the fact that Section 7 deliberately does not refer to a contravention caused by the exit being blocked beyond the box junction is good evidence that such a situation was never meant to be a contravention at all. It is only Section 8 that is relevant when there are vehicles beyond the box junction.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 13:10
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,488
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



Most of that is no longer valid as the regulations have changed, I cannot tell about the time periods as i cannot open the attachments in a form i can read. Re post the PCN on imgur or fliker
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 13:14
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,552
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



PM me the details and I'll see if I can post a smoother video.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LMN
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 14:06
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Member No.: 60,884



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 14:10) *
Most of that is no longer valid as the regulations have changed, I cannot tell about the time periods as i cannot open the attachments in a form i can read. Re post the PCN on imgur or fliker


I am a bit poor in uploading images
I managed to save then in Flickr but h0ow do I share them with you ??
Can I send you a pvt message so that you can see the images?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 14:18
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,488
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (LMN @ Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 15:06) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 14:10) *
Most of that is no longer valid as the regulations have changed, I cannot tell about the time periods as i cannot open the attachments in a form i can read. Re post the PCN on imgur or fliker


I am a bit poor in uploading images
I managed to save then in Flickr but h0ow do I share them with you ??
Can I send you a pvt message so that you can see the images?


Do a Stamfordman suggests and PM him, he is more able than I to put them on the forum. I always use one drive when i need to up load anything
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LMN
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 14:29
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Member No.: 60,884



It’s strange that I could see the video in the council website few days back but when I tried to day there is no video just the images
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 17:12
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 7,552
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Yes video seems to have gone.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LMN
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 17:27
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Member No.: 60,884



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 10:34) *
Ue an external site for pics such as Imgur or Flickr and post the BBCode links.

You video is jerky and hard to watch but it looks like you don't have much of a case I'm afraid on the contravention - best bet is time but they tend to clamp down after 2-3 secs. Maybe something on PCN.

I do understand that the video is jerky but at the best I could calculate from the jerky video that part of the car was in the YBJ for 6 seconds
See previous case
Case Reference: 2140012814
The dvd shows the vehicle stopped for 6 seconds before it starts moving.
otherwise it is nominal or de minimis and does not constitute coming to a stop. 6 or 7 seconds can just about be said to be nominal or de minimis.

Accordingly, I am not satisfied that the contravention occurred and must allow this appeal

Now that the video is not available on their website what can I do?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 18:16
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,488
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (LMN @ Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 18:27) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 10:34) *
Ue an external site for pics such as Imgur or Flickr and post the BBCode links.

You video is jerky and hard to watch but it looks like you don't have much of a case I'm afraid on the contravention - best bet is time but they tend to clamp down after 2-3 secs. Maybe something on PCN.

I do understand that the video is jerky but at the best I could calculate from the jerky video that part of the car was in the YBJ for 6 seconds
See previous case
Case Reference: 2140012814
The dvd shows the vehicle stopped for 6 seconds before it starts moving.
otherwise it is nominal or de minimis and does not constitute coming to a stop. 6 or 7 seconds can just about be said to be nominal or de minimis.

Accordingly, I am not satisfied that the contravention occurred and must allow this appeal

Now that the video is not available on their website what can I do?


Post the pcn i want to check for errors The council will not cancel for de minimis nor for any other reason i can think of but their response could help hugely
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LMN
post Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 15:04
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Member No.: 60,884



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 15:18) *
QUOTE (LMN @ Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 15:06) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 17 Jul 2018 - 14:10) *
Most of that is no longer valid as the regulations have changed, I cannot tell about the time periods as i cannot open the attachments in a form i can read. Re post the PCN on imgur or fliker


I am a bit poor in uploading images
I managed to save then in Flickr but h0ow do I share them with you ??
Can I send you a pvt message so that you can see the images?


Do a Stamfordman suggests and PM him, he is more able than I to put them on the forum. I always use one drive when i need to up load anything


Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 17:16
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,488
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



There is a flaw in the PCN that might help. keep this thread live by posting and someone will help you I have no time til next week
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LMN
post Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 18:14
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Member No.: 60,884



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 18 Jul 2018 - 18:16) *
There is a flaw in the PCN that might help. keep this thread live by posting and someone will help you I have no time til next week

Thanks will wait and see
If the council initially had the video on their website and have now removed it for reasons not known to me
can this be considered as procedural impropriety

They have failed to provide me with evidence I am entitled to in order to defend myself against an allegation they have made
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 19:19
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,605
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



The pcn gives the wrong date for the service of the charge certificate, it should be 28 days from the date of service of the PCN, which is two working days after the date of the PCN.

The Council are effectively threatening to increase the penalty charge by 50% two days earlier than the law allows them to. This is prejudicial and means that the amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case.

Procedural impropriety is not a ground of appeal for this type of pcn, you need to use the penalty exceeds ground instead.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 19:21


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
LMN
post Fri, 20 Jul 2018 - 04:37
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 47
Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Member No.: 60,884



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 20:19) *
The pcn gives the wrong date for the service of the charge certificate, it should be 28 days from the date of service of the PCN, which is two working days after the date of the PCN.

The Council are effectively threatening to increase the penalty charge by 50% two days earlier than the law allows them to. This is prejudicial and means that the amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case.

Procedural impropriety is not a ground of appeal for this type of pcn, you need to use the penalty exceeds ground instead.


Many thanks
I have argued with the council on the grounds you suggested and their automatic reply has been

Thank you for your submission.

All correspondence received about a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) is dealt with in chronological order.

Depending on the stage of the PCN, your enquiry will be now be placed on hold and passed to the appropriate parking team and an officer will reply to you as soon as possible. We aim to respond usually within 14-21 days of receipt for enquiries received in response to a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN), which has been served to your vehicle windscreen.

Please be advised that if you have not received a reply from the Council within this time we have upto 56 days to reply to a formal challenge.

For details of the parking appeals process please refer to our www.wandsworth.gov.uk/parking website.

You may additionally find further useful information on the Parking and Traffic Appeal Service website at www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/

Please do not reply to this acknowledgement. If you have any further questions please call our Parking Helpline on (020) 8871 8871 Mon-Fri 9am to 5pm.

If your enquiry is received within the discounted period that is stated on the PCN, then please be assured that we will re-offer you the opportunity to pay the Notice at the 50% reduced rate in the event that the charge is upheld.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Monday, 24th September 2018 - 00:54
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.