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bussss lane
qaz1
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:50
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got a PCN being in bus lane ticket last week in bristol, a couple of questions come up:

i am a Canadian citizen and spend little time driving here. the bus lane layout was quite confusing and while trying make sense i ended up on top of the road markings [painted on road] that announced it was a bus lane.

can anyone suggest what would chances be of successfully appealing bus lane ticket on those grounds

also,i understand there are 2 appeal levels, if appeals fail must i pay FULL amount [no discount]
that

any advice appreciated

This post has been edited by qaz1: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 16:57
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post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:50
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The Rookie
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:56
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If you bothered reading the replies you would know this should be in the council forum, DON'T post there as well, I'll ask a mod' to move it for you.

Please add a photo/scan (Read the FAQ on how to) of ALL of the PCN with just your personal details redacted.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 13:57


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Council PCN's
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qaz1
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:48
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no for gods sake dont move it ill never find it again, uiv been a hour at leastsearching in different ways for my posts here. i suslpected they were being deleted
SO I CANT SEE ANY REPLIERS< BUT IT would be really useful if i could
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Redivi
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:56
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Your thread has been moved to the Council & Decrim Forum

Members tend to specialise in Council v Private tickets

If the thread had been left in the wrong forum, you probably wouldn't get any advice
I can think of only one Council expert that makes regular visits to the Private forum
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qaz1
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:25
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 14:56) *
If you bothered reading the replies you would know this should be in the council forum, DON'T post there as well, I'll ask a mod' to move it for you.

Please add a photo/scan (Read the FAQ on how to) of ALL of the PCN with just your personal details redacted.


thankyou for looking at this in advance


theres should be an image of the ticklet but i cant see it

ok it not working .
its just a letter from bristol council, PCN, and 3 photos of my car in bus lane with cklear road markings to say bus lane. with 50 percent off offer if paid in 2 weeks
thanks

test , nothing showing up
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cp8759
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 17:26
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Upload to an external site like imgur.com and post a link


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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qaz1
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 10:34
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the photo should show now
tjhanks for looking in advance
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cp8759
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 15:23
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Show us the rest of the PCN, the council pics, the council video and a link to the location on google street view.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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qaz1
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 08:25
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sorry am not with you. pics are above. there no video, street view?. this is everything. other sheet is to contact them, details of my representation etc, challenge, pay, , ownership
thanks
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cp8759
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 15:48
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QUOTE (qaz1 @ Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 09:25) *
sorry am not with you. pics are above. there no video, street view?. this is everything. other sheet is to contact them, details of my representation etc, challenge, pay, , ownership
thanks

We want to see "other sheet is to contact them, details of my representation etc, challenge, pay, , ownership", error in the small print can make the PCN invalid.

Google street view of the location is important, if you don't know what google street view is, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Street_View

You should be able to get the video from the council website, if you don't know how, PM me the PCN details and I'll get it for you.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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qaz1
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 16:10
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thax, im on it
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qaz1
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 16:39
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more info to come

its about here but i cant find the spot , if u need it i will drive out and take a loojk. i was at the time stated headed for temple meads/gate [bristol] as opposed to bath

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4425584,-2....3312!8i6656

ive been an hour and cant see where i was on the road, even the cameras are too many to pick the one. heres a link to camera map: http://maps.bristol.gov.uk/pinpoint/?servi...amp;extent=2500

sorry they are sideways hard to read , if u cant rotate them i will re shoot


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cp8759
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 16:58
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We need to see all of the PCN, we're missing the part on how to pay, appeal rights etc...

You don't have enough space on here to upload everything, upload to an external site like imgur.com and post a link. I know Bristol PCNs are likely to contain a flaw that makes them invalid, but I need to check if the flaw is present on your PCN before I can tell you to use it as a ground of appeal, hence I need to see all of the pages. Also, if the location is too vague, that can also make the PCN invalid.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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cp8759
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 20:13
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Council pics:





I know the location well, it's here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4284977,-...3312!8i6656

You could argue the bus / bike / cycle / taxi only sign should be placed where the first set of traffic lights is, however the flaw in the PCN is a much better bet. You really must show us the PCN in full.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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qaz1
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 15:27
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you say: the flaw in the PCN is a much better bet., but u apparently havent seen it, did u mean a flaw. i did post all 3 sheets, arwe they gone?
than ks
here they are again

This post has been edited by qaz1: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 15:29
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cp8759
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 15:31
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I know Bristol PCNs have a flaw, but I have no way of knowing if it's been fixed since I last saw a Bristol PCN (I suspect it's still there but can't be 100% sure). You didn't post 3 sheets, you only posted the front page and the appeals box. I need to see the "how to pay" section which should be on page 2.


--------------------
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qaz1
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 15:39
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interesting about the flaw. i clicked all 3 at once and assumied they uploaded...duh . they are there now above. so thats where i was , how an eath dio u know not to move into left lane [still a bus lane] after u pass the lights and warning...aghhhh

do u know if my discount remains at 50 pc if i appeal and its rejected , and then appeal again higher up and lose again? i did read the blurb but i dont tyrust the council not to try and trick you in there explaination

thanks

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cp8759
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 15:59
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The PCN tells you that you can pay by calling 0870 7077776, and if you do so they will charge you a 2p per minute service charge. This makes the PCN invalid, see London General Transport Services Limited v London Borough of Camden (case reference 2090198127):

"Considering the matter carefully, I find as a matter of law that, for the reasons set out above, the local authority are neither entitled nor empowered to impose any sum, whether for the method of payment or anything else, in addition to the statutory penalty charge imposed under the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. For completeness, this obviously also means that no sum in addition to the reduced penalty of 50% or the Charge Certificate amount of 150% of the original charge, as the case may be, can be imposed. It is therefore immaterial whether or not the fact of the surcharge is actually printed on the Penalty Charge Notice.

Although I do not need to determine the issue, it must follow that this is the same for any Penalty Charge Notice or, where relevant, on any Notice to Owner or Enforcement Notice issued under the Road Traffic Act 1991, other of the London Local Authorities Acts 1990 to 2003 or the Traffic Management Act 2004.

It is agreed that the local authority did require an additional fee for payment by credit card of this particular penalty charge.
For the reasons set out, I find that the penalty charge in this case did exceed the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.
Accordingly, this appeal must be allowed.
"

This principle was challenged in London Borough of Camden v The Parking Adjudicator & Ors [2011] EWHC 295 (Admin) (see http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2011/295.html), the High Court in that case ruled at paragraph 29:

I am unable to accept Mr Coppel's argument that for the purposes of regulation 4(4)(e) the 1.3% fee can be separated from the penalty charge. As is common ground, an enforcing authority is not at liberty to set its own penalty charges but is limited to the sums set under the statutory scheme. The substance of what the Council did was to increase their penalty charge if payment were to be made by credit card to 101.3% of the sum authorised under that scheme. On Mr Coppel's argument the Council might just as well have introduced other administrative charges and added those too. It is clear, in my judgment, that a Parking Adjudicator is obliged to allow an appeal if the sum required to be paid to an enforcing authority by the motorist exceeds the amount set by the statutory scheme, however the enforcing authority seeks to characterise the additional charge. It makes no difference that the Council identified four mechanisms of payment, only one of which included the surcharge. Having offered that method all motorists were freely entitled to use it and were exposed to the potential demand for 101.3% of the appropriate penalty charge. In these circumstances the Council was demanding a sum to discharge the motorist's liability which was greater than that prescribed by law.

The High Court case is now binding case law and all adjudicators are required to follow it. The 2p per minute surcharge for telephone payments means the amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case, and the High Court has said that the fact that other payments options are available that don't include the surcharge doesn't make any difference.

I would therefore challenge the PCN on the basis that the 2p per minute service charge makes the whole PCN invalid, because the amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 16:50


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
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qaz1
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 17:31
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well uv gone to much work to assist me...thanks very much.

its very interesting, the quotes . a couple of things im curious about remain:

-relating to where my car was. how an earth dio u know not to move into left lane [still a bus lane] after u pass the lights and warning?

-do u know if my discount remains at 50 pc if i appeal and its rejected , and then appeal again higher up and lose again? i did read the blurb but i dont trust the council not to try and trick you in there explaination?

-do u have any suggestions for how to make use of these facts in the appeal. i could paste the lot in to my reply and say that this is the result of research and illustrates why that the pcn in question is invalid .

i could of coarse say just as u sggest: [i]challenge the PCN on the basis that the 2p per minute service charge makes the whole PCN invalid, because the amount demanded exceeds the amount due in the circumstances of the case.

[/i]


thanks

This post has been edited by qaz1: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 - 17:02
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 13 Jul 2018 - 18:29
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Do not think that making things up will help you. nor will the fact that you are not a UK citizen The surcharge is an almost certain winner

Also have a read of this thread

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://forums....NDcip79imBipSkF
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