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Served or Not?, Issued with PCN, but served after I paid
Irksome
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 00:51
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Dear PePiPoo experts,

I'll start with the PCN :






And here is the record of the payment I made for the parking session


The images uploaded by the CEO are key and are in the post below.


I was going to the bank, less than 100m away from where I parked. I parked my car and walked towards the bank, past the payment machine with my phone in hand. I expected to see the large sticker on the side of the machine as I have used in the area for years - but there were no stickers on the side of the machine. No problem, living locally (in an adjacent parking zone) I know that Wandsworth have the foresight to have stickers on every lamppost with the 5 digit code for that zone and the number to call to pay. But there was no sticker on the only lamppost I past. So rather than carry on to the corner to the bank, I crossed the road and double backed on myself to hunt for the code - but there are none as I walked half way back up the road ... so I recrossed the road and walked back down the road, and saw a couple of other machines with no stickers on the side, no stickers on the lampposts (we still have them outside my home) until I got back to the car to find the CEO (who I'd clocked when I parked a few hundred yards up the road) apparently issuing a PCN. I explained to him that I was hunting for the 5 digit code to pay for parking, and took him to the machine, to explain there was no large sticker on the side showing the code (indeed you could see the shadow of the previous sticker) when he pointed out to me, in plain sight had I looked that on the face of the machine there is a small sticker with the telephone number and 5 digit code!

As he showed me the code I already had my phone in my hand, at which point he assured me there was no point in paying now, as he had already generated the ticket, and proceeded to remove it from his machine and put it in the plastic envelope. I said that was ridiculous, he'd seen me trying to pay and asking him for the clarification - however he continued to state that he had no ability to show discretion (I specifically asked him on this point). Whilst I discussed this with him (and attempted to prevent him from photographing the car without me in the photo - but specifically did not prevent him from placing the ticket on the car event though he suggested that was what I was trying to do) I managed to call and pay for the parking (and in the middle of doing so someone called me which interrupted the process).

The ticket was placed on my car after (see the 5th image above) I paid for parking ...

May I seek your advice on how best to challenge the PCN, with the aim of getting Wandsworth to drop this PCN without going to adjudication ... I am not he Registered Keeper (but my wife is!).

This post has been edited by Irksome: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 09:42
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post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 00:51
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makara
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:15
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None of the images are opening for me - try uploading them to Tinypic (unless it's just my PC)
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Irksome
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:21
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I've edited the original post, and here are the CEO pics ...








These should now link correctly.

This post has been edited by Irksome: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 09:38
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Irksome
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 09:44
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I've sorted the image hosting issues now, and hope you can help.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 09:59
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The pictures show a PCN on car...so was served.
On basic facts, we have a PCN at 13.52 and a payment at 13.55.
With the PCN observation times starting at 13.47.
So parked up for at least 8 minutes without paying.

And a story that can be taken at face value or could be interpreted as I parked, didn't pay, saw a CEO by the car so went back with phone in hand pleading issues on making payment.
CEO notes may support your side but I would not rely on that they made any or that they will support you.

You need to convince council and possibly adjudicator that your side is the correct one and that you were genuinely trying to make payment.
I'd suggest some photos of the missing stickers would go some way towards that.
Time to make payment is accepted as reason to cancel a hastily served PCN.
But you will need to justify 8 minutes and show some evidence to support.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:02
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stamfordman
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:07
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In other boroughs the location is on the bay signs, so that's a point - you shouldn't have to hunt high and low for this.

However, parking apps such as Ringgo will geo-locate you - I see Wandsworth uses Parkmobile.

Some of the council pics were taken after your session started.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:11
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I parked in a parking place subject to a pay or P&D restriction;
Instructions on how to pay were placed on a P&D ticket machine situated within the parking place;
I left my car parked without paying the applicable charge
A PCN was issued for not displaying a valid ticket or paying the parking charge;
I argued with the CEO in the execution of their duty;
I purchased parking time which commenved after the times of contravention and service of the PCN.

Shorn of editorial, these appears to be essential objective or agreed acts.

The OP overlays this with a claim that they made a reasonable attempt to pay, essentially based on them not seeing the instructions on the machine and looking widely for a location number.

OP, how would you know PBP and tariff unless you had read this on the machine?

Edit: the traffic sign does not allow PBP, it is only permit holders or pay and display. So where does PBP come into this?
2nd edit: the GSV shows that the traffic sign opposite states 'pay at machine' and includes an arrow... to a traffic sign which states 'pay at machine opposite', so, arguably, according to the OP's account they did not leave the parking place because both sides of the road are regulated by the same machine and tariff.
But none of the 3 traffic signs in GSV refers to PBP.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:23
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Irksome
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:21
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As stamfordman points out the PCN was served after I paid for the parking session.

hcanderson, I park regularly in the streets here, and always pay to park, using the same method every time of calling the number posted on the sign. The signs are always in my experience either placed on the side of the payment machine, and additionally on lampposts. I will take images of these signs in similar locations today.

For some reason the signs appear to not have been placed in the positions I expected them to be, and instead on this machine, a smaller sign has been posted on the face of the machine which is not where I expected to see it based on my previous experience. I shall obtain evidence to support this statement today.

I'd dispute the observation time, but I suspect there is little mileage in pursuing this route as its my word against the CEO's.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:25
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There are only a couple of meters in the street and this one that was near the OP wasn't (last August) exactly shouting out a location number as we know they do in other places. Note that Wandsworth allows Parkmobile in all P&D bays and it is not exactly making things easy on the street, or wasn't back then.



QUOTE (Irksome @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:21) *
As stamfordman points out the PCN was served after I paid for the parking session.


No - I said some pics were taken. The PCN was served before your session started.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:31
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Note that Wandsworth allows Parkmobile in all P&D bays and it is not exactly making things easy on the street, or wasn't back then.

But this does not permit them to maintain traffic signs which require the display of a ticket.
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stamfordman
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:38
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:31) *
Note that Wandsworth allows Parkmobile in all P&D bays and it is not exactly making things easy on the street, or wasn't back then.

But this does not permit them to maintain traffic signs which require the display of a ticket.



We've been through the display ticket/PBP issue many times though...

Wandsworth clearly hasn't bothered to spend the money on updating all its P&D bay signs. Other boroughs have.

Wandsworth says:

"The location code will be clearly displayed on the side of each pay and display machine."

http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/200459/p...ur_mobile_phone
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Irksome
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:40
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:25) *
No - I said some pics were taken. The PCN was served before your session started.

The PCN was generated before the session started, but if my understanding of service is correct (placing it on the car or handing it to the vehicles keeper, or later posting it) then the act of service occurred after the session started - potentially usefully, the CEO photo's show that the PCN was not on the car after the PCN was generated, but was placed on the car at 13:57, some time after the parking session started.

This post has been edited by Irksome: Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:41
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DancingDad
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:46
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:40) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:25) *
No - I said some pics were taken. The PCN was served before your session started.

The PCN was generated before the session started, but if my understanding of service is correct (placing it on the car or handing it to the vehicles keeper, or later posting it) then the act of service occurred after the session started - potentially usefully, the CEO photo's show that the PCN was not on the car after the PCN was generated, but was placed on the car at 13:57, some time after the parking session started.


You are conflating time of contravention with time of service.
They are different times.
At the time of contravention there was no parking session in place.
That service happened later is neither here nor there.
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Irksome
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:49
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Thank you DD - that was the point I was trying to get at and your answer makes sense.

I should add that I did request that the CEO make a note of my claim to be having difficulty finding the paytopark code, and that he said he would do so but that I saw no evidence of him doing so on his machine.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:59
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If the CEO is doing their job properly, they made notes and these will support your story.
So do request them with any challenge.
But is a big IF and I wouldn't bet on it.
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Irksome
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 18:48
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I revisited the site today, and took pictures of a similar setup nearer where I live, I think the difference is stark. It's clear there is an issue on this road and the few surrounding, as not only are a lot of the signs missing, many are defaced.

Examples of what I expected to see




The following is the exact situation in Comyn Road (pics taken today, but nothing has changed in the last 3 days). The meter has no stickers on either side, the immediate nearest lampposts and signposts have no signs, and those that are further up the road (the opposite direction to which I went looking) have defaced signage.








And here is the face of the meter, that I completely failed to look at!




I also have a further point:

Is the contravention code 12 correct? I was displaying a valid permit for a different subzone (this zone is C1, mine is for C3). Surely therefore the appropriate contravention code should be 19 (Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay & display ticket, or after the expiry of paid for time).

At About PCN (Wandsworth) Wandsworth explain that PCN's are either 'more serious' Band A (£130) or Band B (£110) or 'less serious' Band A (£80) or Band B (£60) but I can't see what on earth qualifies as Band A or Band B from that page?

I suggest that another ground for reps could be the "penalty exceeded ..."

A couple of further images I took today :
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stamfordman
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 19:04
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As I pointed out they say that location is on the side of the meters. Not in this case.

Band A/B is inner city/outer city.

https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/...arking-band-map

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Irksome
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 19:12
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:38) *
"The location code will be clearly displayed on the side of each pay and display machine."

I have taken a capture of this statement on their website for my reference, thank you.

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 19:04) *
As I pointed out they say that location is on the side of the meters. Not in this case.

Band A/B is inner city/outer city.

https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/...arking-band-map


Yes sorry our posts crossed.

How on earth am I supposed to know that from the Wandsworth website? However, your information clearly defines a ground for the "penalty exceeding" as they have charged a Band A fine for a Band B zone ... wouldn't this make ALL of Wandsworths PCN's invalid?
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stamfordman
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 19:19
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QUOTE (Irksome @ Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 19:12) *
How on earth am I supposed to know that from the Wandsworth website? However, your information clearly defines a ground for the "penalty exceeding" as they have charged a Band A fine for a Band B zone ... wouldn't this make ALL of Wandsworths PCN's invalid?


Not so fast:

Band A (£130 or £80 depending on how serious the parking contravention is considered to be) – Applies to the area north of the borough bounded by the south circular and the A3 to the west.
Band B (£110 or £60 depending on how serious the parking contravention is considered to be) -Applies in the remainder of the borough.

http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/200461/p...rge_notices_pcn
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Irksome
post Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 20:18
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Who sets the bands? London Councils website clearly indicates that Wandsworth is band B, but Wandsworth have decided they have two areas that have separate banding?

What are your (all and sundry) thoughts on the contravention code?
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