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Multiple PCNs for parking in flat car park
HenryHippo
post Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:58
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At the end of 2016 the block of flats I live in introduced parking permits and PCNs.

I didn't actually get a permit through the post, but most people did in the block. Consequently the car I own which was parked in the car park had 7 PCNs within a 4 week period and the total invoice is £1,160

I ignored the letters that came in the post, but now they have sent me the attached letters for a not insubstantial amount

Does the fact that I didn't get a permit through the post before they enforced the tickets count as a defence? Eventually they sent me one by recorded delivery at which point I had had several tickets.

Quite miffed to be PCNd in my own home.








This post has been edited by HenryHippo: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:59
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post Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:58
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 20:55
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 19:13) *
Res judicata applies where the issues are the same.

I imagine that, in the original case, the judge found that the parking company had no right to charge Henry for parking in the parking space as opposed to finding the entire parking scheme to be invalid.

On this occasion, however, Henry was not parked in the parking space.

Henry needs the transcript of the original judgement. It would be foolish for Henry to go off half-cock without it.


Let me think back..... the argument was that there was nothing in the lease saying I had to display a permit and the judge agreed

So no, I don't think it is actually res judicata. But could be worth using it to scare them off anyway?
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SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 20:57
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Yes, that's the point, they do no checking before throwing threats around, so will not have realised it's you, Henry of the Counterclaim!
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 5 Jul 2018 - 21:36
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Email sent
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Albert Ross
post Fri, 6 Jul 2018 - 01:14
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 16:48) *
These guys just don't give up....
<Snip>

Also worth adding that this case should have been bundled with the other one if they wanted to take it to court?


That is where res judicata rests to prevent a scattergun approach to litigation and give a finality for the parties.
Is this what narowing the issues is about, to make sure that all arguments are in place. what is agreed is agreed and let the judge do the adjudication on the outstanding heads of claim.
How can you argue Locus Standii, that has already been decided. It would be an abuse of process to rehash that argument.
What the lease says, oh that has been decided.

Otherwise you will sorn your vehicle over the winter and then they will claim that it must be taxed... Gotta get a second bite of the Cherry.

This maybe irksome. and it would not surprise me to find snips going to the flame pit. which wouldn't be that bad as there are some knowledgeable posters do not do private parking... [sic]


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HenryHippo
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 15:44
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So res judicta could be argued to give impunity over any behavior with the car?

I could (in theory), do the following actions that the lease prohibits, but because they have already taken me to court once, they can't take me again?

- Park on the lawn (not part of the allocated area)
- Park a trailer
- Park a commercial over 3.5 tonnes

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Jlc
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 15:54
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No, unless you are an ambassador for the Central African Republic?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ManxRed
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:06
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:54) *
No, unless you are an ambassador for the Central African Republic?

laugh.gif


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henrik777
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 22:33
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 16:44) *
So res judicta could be argued to give impunity over any behavior with the car?

I could (in theory), do the following actions that the lease prohibits, but because they have already taken me to court once, they can't take me again?

- Park on the lawn (not part of the allocated area)
- Park a trailer
- Park a commercial over 3.5 tonnes



Res Judicata would potentially cover any similar events that they should have been aware of at the time of filing a claim. Anything afterwards would not be covered.
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Albert Ross
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 23:04
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And that the fresh claim is for an event 2017, and that they should have been well aware of before the hearing in 2018.

Res Judicata was well defined in the supreme court, and all courts should follow it of course.

Virgin Airways Ill find the link...

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2013/46.html

Lord Sumption from 17 and every one else was in agreement and Lord Neuberger expounded upon.

This post has been edited by Albert Ross: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 23:08


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Eljayjay
post Tue, 10 Jul 2018 - 23:16
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Res Judicata applies to the same issues where nothing has changed.

I believe that the original decision related to parking within a bay or bays. The issue now is different. The parking company claims that the OP was not parked within a bay.

henrik777’s final sentence is incorrect.

It is impossible to say what Res Judicata covers without the transcript of the judgement in the original case.

This discussion without the transcript is nothing more than well-meaning individuals smacking their gums together.

This post has been edited by Eljayjay: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 07:15
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emanresu
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 06:09
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QUOTE
Res Judicata applies to the same issues where nothing has changed.


I'm going to go with henrik777 on this one as I have had one well-meaning individual smacking their fumes together on this subject. I didn't want to disagree as he was a DJ.


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Where there is a claim - there is a counterclaim.
Are Parking companies misusing your personal data or interfering with your lease? Counterclaims are only £25. Makes them sit up and take notice. For leaseholds, join in the Managing agents too. Since the purpose of these claims is to frighten you, give them something to be frightened of.
Subject Access Requests to the DVLA?Find out who accessed your data and when. Try SubjectAccess.Requests@dvla.gsi.gov.uk. [Apologies if it does not work]
Double Dip / ANPR FaultsThe BPA Report on ANPR Double Dips is here. Ideal case for a counterclaim (see above).
Daily Court List. See who is doing what and where here
Printing and posting Witness Statements. Easy and cheap way DoxDirect
What is court like. A District Judge's view
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henrik777
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 09:57
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QUOTE
henrik777’s final sentence is incorrect.


You can argue all day about the first sentence but if you're saying my last sentence is wrong you should exit the conversation.
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Eljayjay
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 19:58
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Well, henrik777, if you can justify your description of the way in which you assert that Res Judicata is time-dependent, I shall gladly offer you an apology. Can you?
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henrik777
post Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 22:59
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QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 20:58) *
Well, henrik777, if you can justify your description of the way in which you assert that Res Judicata is time-dependent, I shall gladly offer you an apology. Can you?


I haven't gone to university or anything, but i'm comfortable with the fact that time travel is impossible, i mean all forms of gambling would be impossible if people could actually travel to the future and back.

This post has been edited by henrik777: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 23:00
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Eljayjay
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 15:33
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QUOTE
I haven't gone to university or anything


I guessed.
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ManxRed
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 15:36
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Come on people, play nicely!


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Redivi
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 17:06
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QUOTE (henrik777 @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 23:59) *
QUOTE (Eljayjay @ Wed, 11 Jul 2018 - 20:58) *
Well, henrik777, if you can justify your description of the way in which you assert that Res Judicata is time-dependent, I shall gladly offer you an apology. Can you?


I haven't gone to university or anything, but i'm comfortable with the fact that time travel is impossible, i mean all forms of gambling would be impossible if people could actually travel to the future and back.

According to Stephen Hawking, time travel is possible but no such travellers turned up at the party he announced after the event

He also thought it would be fatal
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Eljayjay
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 20:56
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OK, in an effort to settle this matter peacefully, I would add the following comments.

In Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd v Zodiac Seats UK Limited [2013] UKSC 46, the Supreme Court revisited the doctrine of Res Judicata and identified the six principles which make up the doctrine to be as follows:-

1. A party is prevented from bringing subsequent proceedings to challenge an outcome that has already been decided (cause of action estoppel)

2. If a claimant succeeds in the first action and does not appeal the outcome, he may not bring a subsequent action on the same cause of action (i.e. to recover further damages)

3. The doctrine of merger treats a cause of action as having been extinguished once judgment has been provided and accordingly the Claimant’s only right is the judgment itself

4. A party may not bring subsequent proceedings on an issue that has already been determined (issue estoppel)

5. A party may not bring subsequent proceedings which should and could have been dealt with in earlier proceedings (the ‘Henderson v Henderson’ principle)

6. There is a general procedural rule against abusive proceedings

Literally, the term “res judicata” means “a matter judged”. Once, a matter has been judged, i.e. the issues have been settled, the doctrine of Res Judicata applies forever unless and until, for example, there is a change in the law or a change in the positions of the parties.

What henrik777 said was “Res Judicata would potentially cover any similar events that they should have been aware of at the time of filing a claim. Anything afterwards would not be covered.”.

So, henrik777’s second sentence does not accord with the six principles identified by the Supreme Court.

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HenryHippo
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 21:29
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Back on topic, they have withdrawn their threats. Thanks SRM

On a seperate note I wish the transcript would hurry up! Asked Ubiquotus if I could do anything to hurry it up, but they said they were chasing the courts... a likely story. What are my rights with this? I have paid for a 14 day turn around and had nothing of the sort


ear Mr Hippo,



Re: UK Parking Control Ltd



Thank you for your correspondence dated 5 July 2018. This was passed to our client and we have received their instructions.



Our client will not be pursuing the parking charge notice detailed in our letter dated 26 June 2018. Our client's debt recovery agent has confirmed to us that they have also closed all files in relation to the parking charge notices issued against your vehicles at XXXXXX.



We have instructions to close this file and we consider this to be the end of this matter.



Yours sincerely,
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ostell
post Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 21:38
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I lost track of what was happening. Is there a counterclaim active on this?
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