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Multiple PCNs for parking in flat car park
HenryHippo
post Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:58
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At the end of 2016 the block of flats I live in introduced parking permits and PCNs.

I didn't actually get a permit through the post, but most people did in the block. Consequently the car I own which was parked in the car park had 7 PCNs within a 4 week period and the total invoice is £1,160

I ignored the letters that came in the post, but now they have sent me the attached letters for a not insubstantial amount

Does the fact that I didn't get a permit through the post before they enforced the tickets count as a defence? Eventually they sent me one by recorded delivery at which point I had had several tickets.

Quite miffed to be PCNd in my own home.








This post has been edited by HenryHippo: Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:59
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post Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 19:58
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 4 Jul 2017 - 14:05
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So you have rights to park in the communal space, and do indeed have some form of landholder entitlement to the communal area. But a claim for damages for trespass seems harder to me.

Are you really freehold? Is it a share of freeehold or a lease?
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HenryHippo
post Tue, 4 Jul 2017 - 14:42
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 4 Jul 2017 - 15:05) *
So you have rights to park in the communal space, and do indeed have some form of landholder entitlement to the communal area. But a claim for damages for trespass seems harder to me.

Are you really freehold? Is it a share of freeehold or a lease?


I have scrapped the trespass claim now

Forgive me, where does it say I am freehold?
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Jlc
post Tue, 4 Jul 2017 - 14:53
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Tue, 4 Jul 2017 - 15:42) *
Forgive me, where does it say I am freehold?

In the template:

QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Mon, 3 Jul 2017 - 21:02) *
...It impinges on my rights as a freehold resident, has caused some considerable anxiety and distress...



--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 4 Jul 2017 - 15:00
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....whcih is the danger of templates.

You havent read the whole thing, and so I suggest you do so. Make sure you understand it all.
If you do not intend to file a claim, do not state that you will do so.
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HenryHippo
post Tue, 4 Jul 2017 - 15:57
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 4 Jul 2017 - 16:00) *
....whcih is the danger of templates.

You havent read the whole thing, and so I suggest you do so. Make sure you understand it all.
If you do not intend to file a claim, do not state that you will do so.


Fair point. Made a couple more changes. Speak now people or forever hold your peace, will print and post tomorrow morning

Dear Sirs,
I refer to PCN ******* Insert all of the numbers Letter before action, re PCN ******

The above Notice to Keeper has been served on me as the registered keeper of vehicle Reg. ****** Your PCN draws to my attention that you are using the communal car parking areas for your own business purposes. My lease allows unfettered occupational rights to the parking areas, which means you are operating a predatory business on land which you have no overriding rights in.
Your involvement on this land will have supposedly been to prevent parking by uninvited persons, for the benefit of the actual leaseholders and their invited guests. Instead you carry out a predatory operation on those very people whose interests you are purportedly there to uphold.
In any case, my lease in respect of the common areas of the grounds and the communal parking area places no restrictions on the parking facilities such as those you have tried to imply, let alone a penalty regime for an alleged contractual offer to use the communal parking area to which I already have such rights or to place restrictions on visiting guests. You cannot offer me something I already have, and I am not obliged to accept an offer in such circumstances.
My lease remains the same as when it was originally agreed as part of my residential rights. There are no restrictions on parking within it that this car has breached and I believe you are acting unlawfully by attempting to take legal action when I have an absolute right of peaceful enjoyment on the land including allowing my guests free use of it.
If you feel that you have been misled by the Managing Agents insofar as they have contracted with you to operate here, then that is something you must take up with them directly. It is of little interest to me as I have unequivocal unfettered right of peaceful enjoyment on the land.
I draw you attention to the case of Jopson v Homeguard , case 2906J in Oxford County Court where the appeal heard by his honour Judge Harris QC. This was an appeal against a previous hearing which was awarded in favour of Homeguard, in similar circumstances as those addressed in my dispute with you. The Judge allowed the appeal in favour of Mrs Jopson. I also draw your attention to PACE v Mr (N Redacted), case C6GF14F0 in Croydon county court where the case was heard by District Judge Coonan. In summing up he stated " I have before me a tenancy agreement which gives Mr [N. redacted] the right to park on the estate and it does not say “on condition that you display a permit”. It does not say that, so he has that right. What Pace Recovery is seeking to do is, unilaterally outside the contract, restrict that right to only when a permit is displayed. Pace Recovery cannot do that."
Additional matters
You have obtained my details from the DVLA when you have no right to do so.
I am of the opinion that you don't care if you have rights and perhaps rely on your victims believing that some contract with the Managing Agent of the premises or even the landowner, allows you to apply parking terms on the car parking spaces at the premises. This is a mistaken assumption, as you will know anyway.
I am a resident at the premises to which the parking is attached as a lease and which allows unfettered rights to the use of the communal areas and parking facilities.
You have a duty of care to comply with the necessary Code of Practice of your Accredited Trade Association, the International Parking Community. The requirements laid out in the Code of practice make it clear that you must only operate on land where you have the landholder’s permission. You have failed in that duty.
Your involvement in your supposed parking management arrangements place on you an obligation to ensure that proper consideration is given to all the facts. Lax contractual assessment is not an excuse for a derogation of your duty. A breach of the Data Protect Act is a matter of fact. You have either breached it or you haven't. Whatever excuse you present for the breach does not excuse it in any way as you are under the requirement to show due diligence and a duty of care to ensure that personal details are obtained lawfully and then used lawfully from then on.
You will know that as this is a residential location the residents will have some sort of property rights, by way of their lease. It is incumbent upon you to consider the resident's rights in respect of the use of parking spaces. If you contracted with the managing agents to “control” the parking facilities they have misdirected you, although it is common knowledge that they often get a kick-back in commission for allowing predatory parking companies to take control of land. They have no other real interest otherwise.
If it was the landowner who contracted with you then the same applies. A landowner cannot restrict a privilege within an agreed covenant and it is your responsibility to ask the right questions and ensure that the operation of parking control is lawful.
I draw your attention to the case of Saeed v Plustrade Ltd [2001] EWCA Civ 2011 (20th December, 2001) heard at the Royal Courts of Justice by LORD JUSTICE AULD, LORD JUSTICE ROBERT WALKER and SIR CHRISTOPHER SLADE where they found that a landlord cannot take away something given within a lease, specifically a derogation of parking rights already afforded within a lease.
However you look at this, as I have an absolute right to use of the parking facilities without any intervention from you or anyone else, a breach of the Data Protection Act HAS occurred as you had no reasonable cause to apply for and use my personal details from the DVLA.
I draw your attention to the case of Lireza Ittihadieh v 5-11 Ceyne Gardens RTM Company Ltd & others at http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2017/121.html which makes it clear that once data has been accessed for personal use then you become the Data Controller, something which the DVLA KADOE Contract also makes clear.
I now make a claim against you for punitive damages to the extent of £250 per instance for the wrongful application for, and subsequent misuse of my information from the DVLA. Given that there are six instances in total, this amounts to £1,500. This is a serious matter and one which is both stressful and degrading. It impinges on my rights outlined in my lease, has caused some considerable anxiety and distress and to top it all off, you are now warning me of a claim being likely in a country court for the sum of money you deem you are entitled to. This is an atrocious situation without any merit at all, and I believe may also be a fraudulent action under the auspices of the Fraud Act 2006 for Fraud by false representation which is a criminal offence that carries a sentence of up to 12 months imprisonment on summary conviction.
BE AWARE that this matter is now in your knowledge. An excuse of not knowing a criminal act had occurred due to the ill-constructed contract you have to “manage” the parking, now has no merit. I will ensure that anyone else within the residential complex whom is being targeted by you from now on will be made full aware of your illegal activity and I will also be considering legal action against you for fraud myself anyway. I will first see how you handle this claim before I make a complaint to the police.
An amount of £1500 for the damages is claimed for wrongful application of, and misuse of the data from the DVLA. This is already adjudicated on as being reasonable as evidenced by the case of Halliday v Creation Consumer Finance Ltd [2013] All ER (D) 199
To prevent this matter being taken to court I require payment within 14 working days from 2 days of the date of this letter. Failure of this will result in a court claim being instigated and consequential separate costs being added for the added expense. I have made it known already that I will also considering a police complaint for the fraud dependent on the response to this claim.
Yours sincerely
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HenryHippo
post Tue, 4 Jul 2017 - 21:31
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anyone?
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ostell
post Wed, 5 Jul 2017 - 06:51
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I think it looks good.
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HenryHippo
post Wed, 5 Jul 2017 - 08:18
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Oh and send the letter to UKPC yes, not the law firm that wrote to me on their behalf?
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Lynnzer
post Wed, 5 Jul 2017 - 09:29
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Wed, 5 Jul 2017 - 09:18) *
Oh and send the letter to UKPC yes, not the law firm that wrote to me on their behalf?

It won't harm to copy them in. Make sure you get a proof posting certificate for them all.


--------------------
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HenryHippo
post Wed, 5 Jul 2017 - 10:19
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Wed, 5 Jul 2017 - 10:29) *
QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Wed, 5 Jul 2017 - 09:18) *
Oh and send the letter to UKPC yes, not the law firm that wrote to me on their behalf?

It won't harm to copy them in. Make sure you get a proof posting certificate for them all.



Recorded Letter posted to UKPC

Will email both parties in same message next though.
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ostell
post Wed, 5 Jul 2017 - 10:32
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Recorded not usually recommended as they can refuse it as they know it will be something nasty. Next time straight forward 1st class post and free proof of posting from the post office.
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 19:33
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Been issued a money claim form. Date of issue 12th July, Date of Service 17th July. I have just filled out the AOS. I have not contested jurisdiction and registered my intention to defend the whole amount. 28 days from date of service means I need to respond by 14th August

I intend to defend all 7 PCNs and to issue an appropriate counterclaim. Again all monies (after my costs have been paid) will go to charity

My building lease is my main defense, should I base it on this?
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Lynnzer
post Fri, 21 Jul 2017 - 10:09
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QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 20:33) *
My building lease is my main defense, should I base it on this?

That's got to be main part above everything else.
You don't leave it that though. Include forbidding signs, no right to offer contractual terms to someone who already has a lease to use trhe spaces et.
AND, add the counter-claim at this point to bring in the managing agents as jointly liable for tortious interference by contracting a third a party for car park duties, which has resulted in a breach of the DPA by the PPC.




--------------------
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HenryHippo
post Fri, 21 Jul 2017 - 14:16
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Fri, 21 Jul 2017 - 11:09) *
QUOTE (HenryHippo @ Thu, 20 Jul 2017 - 20:33) *
My building lease is my main defense, should I base it on this?

That's got to be main part above everything else.
You don't leave it that though. Include forbidding signs, no right to offer contractual terms to someone who already has a lease to use trhe spaces et.
AND, add the counter-claim at this point to bring in the managing agents as jointly liable for tortious interference by contracting a third a party for car park duties, which has resulted in a breach of the DPA by the PPC.


I don't see anything in the building lease about forbidding signs

My plan is 7 x £250 counterclaim to the parking company, how much would you counterclaim from the managing agents? Or did you literally mean the 2 parties should be jointly liable for the 7 x £250 ?
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ostell
post Fri, 21 Jul 2017 - 14:22
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But the contractor put up forbidding signs on the walls didn't he. Things like "no unauthorised parking", "Permits holders only"
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nosferatu1001
post Sun, 23 Jul 2017 - 06:03
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They always claim a contract was entered into
Something the forbids you is not offering a contract.
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HenryHippo
post Wed, 2 Aug 2017 - 22:20
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Sun, 2 Jul 2017 - 22:29) *
PLEASE


SRM (and anyone else): Would you be kind enough to review this please that I adapted from my other thread?


I am NAME of ADDRESS, the defendant in this matter. The claim is denied in its entirety and I assert that I am not liable for the amount claimed, or any amount at all, for the following reasons:
1) As a homeowner, my lease allows me to park where I please in the car park
i) The right to exclusive use of the Allocated Parking Space for the purpose of parking a private motor vehicle not exceeding three tonnes in laden weight"
ii) Not to use the Allocated Parking Space for any purpose other than the purpose of parking a private motor vehicle not exceeding three tonnes in gross laden weight of motor cycle thereon and not to park or allowed to be parked any motor vehicle wheeled vehicle or other form of transport on any other part of the Estate save as may be permitted under the terms of the rights granted elsewhere in this Lease
iii) The vehicle in question is less than three tonnes in gross laden weight

2) This claim is for a breach of contract. However, it is denied that any contract was breached
i) My lease does not mention that any contractor is allowed to place or enforce signs on the premises
ii) The contractor did not have a right to offer contractual terms over a space that I already have a lease for

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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 03:45
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Well you cant park where you please, only in the allocated space. However you have an unfettered right to use THAT SPACE for parking a private vehicle.

Do the particulars of claim disclose a cause of action (ciontract, trespass, breach of contract)?
If not, why havent you said so as item 1?
Have they added on irrecoverable sums to the claim? If yes, why havent you challenged them?
and so on

Your defence is about a quarter the length of most, and most of it isnt really defence - as it doesnt reference the legal cases e.g. Jppson vs Homeguard - that YOU MSUT MENTION

You also havent mentioned that the grantor may not derograte from their grant, so even if the PPC has a contract with the landowner, if the landowner has already granted you rights to that space, their later contract with the PPC cannot transfer (derogate) those rights granted you.
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ostell
post Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 06:17
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An d you already have the right to park given in your lease in your own space demised to you (it's on the deeds?) then you have no need for another contract to provide parking.
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HenryHippo
post Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 20:44
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Thu, 3 Aug 2017 - 04:45) *
Well you cant park where you please, only in the allocated space. However you have an unfettered right to use THAT SPACE for parking a private vehicle.

Do the particulars of claim disclose a cause of action (ciontract, trespass, breach of contract)?
If not, why havent you said so as item 1?
Have they added on irrecoverable sums to the claim? If yes, why havent you challenged them?
and so on

Your defence is about a quarter the length of most, and most of it isnt really defence - as it doesnt reference the legal cases e.g. Jppson vs Homeguard - that YOU MSUT MENTION

You also havent mentioned that the grantor may not derograte from their grant, so even if the PPC has a contract with the landowner, if the landowner has already granted you rights to that space, their later contract with the PPC cannot transfer (derogate) those rights granted you.


My lease doesn't actually show a dedicated space, just the communal car park. Do you think I am OK to upload the lease here if I take my exact address off it?

Breach of contract yes, will add that in

Irreoverable sums in the sense that they haven't actually incurred any costs?

And the grantor is the property management company in this scenario?
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