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Pulled for 'red' light jump but witness can dispute.
INeedHelpPlease
post Wed, 27 Jan 2021 - 09:57
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Good morning

I'm looking for help /advice please...
A driver got pulled over not so long ago for supposedly running a red light. The driver told the police officer it was an Amber light but the police officer clearly was not likely to be reasoned with as their response was to say it was red but I'm going to put down careless driving down then. The driver said no more and let the officer go through the motions.
The letter received does state careless driving with the usual 3 options of a course /points-fine /court.

What the driver failed to mention to the officer, was that the car behind with a dash cam was traveling with them....
The camera footage shows the lights were on Amber when the car was fully across the line for the lights. There is no careless driving what so ever.
Footage will of course need editing to show this clearly, watching the footage in real time doesn't show this as clear as I would like.
Should add that the footage does not have the correct time stamp, can't see Reg number but does show the unmarked police car Reg and it lighting up to pull over etc.
I do have it uploaded to YouTube unlisted atm.


So I have a couple of questions.... Is being booked for careless driving the same as running a red light when it comes to it?

Can the driver use the dash cam evidence in court and does it have to be unedited?

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post Wed, 27 Jan 2021 - 09:57
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mickR
post Wed, 27 Jan 2021 - 21:08
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 27 Jan 2021 - 20:45) *
QUOTE (mickR @ Wed, 27 Jan 2021 - 20:07) *
@ineedhelp can you give us a location, GSV woukd be good

Here?

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 27 Jan 2021 - 20:01) *
Note that at this point the car is on "slow" road marking.

The distance from that point to the stop line is approx. 70 metres.


Yeah that's why i wanted to see the gsv. I can see why plod pulled him.

QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 27 Jan 2021 - 11:19)
As noted above, the video evidence may actually 'prove' the alleged offence and not actually offer a defence.


I think it does. In fact id go as far as to say it looks like he floored it when the went amber huh.gif
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Jlc
post Wed, 27 Jan 2021 - 21:17
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QUOTE (mickR @ Wed, 27 Jan 2021 - 21:08) *
In fact id go as far as to say it looks like he floored it when the went amber huh.gif

It's hard to tell but the car does appear to accelerate.


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Durzel
post Wed, 27 Jan 2021 - 23:44
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The car in front ended up putting some serious distance between it and the camera car even taking account of the weird zoom factor of the edit. It looks to my eyes that they floored it to beat the lights, which is pretty much the opposite of what you’re supposed to do.

As has been said I would not want that video shown at court. Some pretty major accidents happen when two people try to beat their respective lights.
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Slapdash
post Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 01:08
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If it is indeeds 70m from the point at which the light turned amber is there any merit in:-

The HC suggests a 96m distance for a hard stop at 70mph in good conditions.
There was a vehicle with the camera behind.

Against that is whether it was reasonable to be approaching at that speed, but if not why is it not a lower limit.


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captain swoop
post Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 04:01
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QUOTE (Slapdash @ Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 01:08) *
If it is indeeds 70m from the point at which the light turned amber is there any merit in:-

The HC suggests a 96m distance for a hard stop at 70mph in good conditions.
There was a vehicle with the camera behind.

Against that is whether it was reasonable to be approaching at that speed, but if not why is it not a lower limit.



It's a limit, not a target.
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666
post Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 07:54
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QUOTE (Slapdash @ Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 01:08) *
If it is indeeds 70m from the point at which the light turned amber is there any merit in:-

The HC suggests a 96m distance for a hard stop at 70mph in good conditions.
There was a vehicle with the camera behind.

Against that is whether it was reasonable to be approaching at that speed, but if not why is it not a lower limit.

The limit is irrelevant. The DVSA advice (Driving - The Essential Skills) is:

"Approaching green traffic lights,

Approach traffic lights as you would ay other junction. Keep your speed down.

Don't speed up to 'beat the lights'. Be ready to stop, especially if the lights have been green nfor some time."

As that is part of the syllabus for the driving tests, it is reasonable to argue that it is what is expected of a careful and competent driver
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Boomer
post Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 09:29
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It doesn't directly help the OP, but the (unmarked) police car does seem to go past at one hell of a lick!

It is almost as if he was expecting the first car to run the lights (with blue lights on straight away) and i doubt whether plod could have actually stopped before the lights (should the accused have pulled off an amazing braking manouver).

Maybe there is more to this that we are being told (e.g. was plod already taking an interest before the lights)?
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cp8759
post Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 10:54
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QUOTE (Boomer @ Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 09:29) *
It is almost as if he was expecting the first car to run the lights (with blue lights on straight away)...

The complete lack of braking might have given him a clue? Anyway, we all know that police officers who've done their advanced driving course acquire superhuman powers.

QUOTE (666 @ Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 07:54) *
As that is part of the syllabus for the driving tests, it is reasonable to argue that it is what is expected of a careful and competent driver

+1. I knew I'd read that advice somewhere but couldn't find it, thanks for digging it up.


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mickR
post Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 10:57
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QUOTE (Boomer @ Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 09:29) *
It doesn't directly help the OP, but the (unmarked) police car does seem to go past at one hell of a lick!

It is almost as if he was expecting the first car to run the lights (with blue lights on straight away) and i doubt whether plod could have actually stopped before the lights (should the accused have pulled off an amazing braking manouver).

Maybe there is more to this that we are being told (e.g. was plod already taking an interest before the lights)?


I thought the same.
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BertB
post Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 11:15
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QUOTE (Boomer @ Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 10:29) *
Maybe there is more to this that we are being told (e.g. was plod already taking an interest before the lights)?


In fairness, neither of the two cars are going to know if an unmarked police car was taking an interest or not, so I'm not sure it is a case of not being told everything. There is nothing to indicate in that video that he was already being pursued at that point.

With regard to it going past at a fair lick. The camera car has come to a near standstill before it finally goes past him. Hardly Nigel Mansell type scenes here.
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Korting
post Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 18:34
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Wed, 27 Jan 2021 - 11:19) *
As noted above, the video evidence may actually 'prove' the alleged offence and not actually offer a defence.


If plod is watching this thread and assuming that they can identify the person with the dash cam, can they foce him to hand it over as evidence?

Should the video be erased/destroyed (and removed from youtube) to stop the Police using it as evidence?


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cp8759
post Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 18:39
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QUOTE (Korting @ Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 18:34) *
If plod is watching this thread and assuming that they can identify the person with the dash cam, can they foce him to hand it over as evidence?

Well I imagine they could seize it, but I don't see how they're going to identify who has it.

QUOTE (Korting @ Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 18:34) *
Should the video be erased/destroyed (and removed from youtube) to stop the Police using it as evidence?

Deliberately destroying evidence could well amount to PCOJ (or at least the CPS guidance suggests as much), so I really wouldn't go there.


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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 29 Jan 2021 - 02:01
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 18:39) *
Deliberately destroying evidence could well amount to PCOJ (or at least the CPS guidance suggests as much), so I really wouldn't go there.

Have to say I think this is rubbish. Anyone with a dashcam will knowingly record dozens of criminal offences on every journey.

By your logic every time I record a car that sets off a speed or red light camera then I am legally obliged to retain the footage because I am aware the police may be investigating the offence, or risk jail time.

Such an idea is implausible in a world where we all generate staggering amounts of data every day.

That said, as the footage shows almost certainly any defence is doomed, so it's a somewhat moot point.
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cp8759
post Fri, 29 Jan 2021 - 09:45
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Fri, 29 Jan 2021 - 02:01) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 28 Jan 2021 - 18:39) *
Deliberately destroying evidence could well amount to PCOJ (or at least the CPS guidance suggests as much), so I really wouldn't go there.

By your logic every time I record a car that sets off a speed or red light camera then I am legally obliged to retain the footage because I am aware the police may be investigating the offence, or risk jail time.

But here the person with the footage has certain knowledge that the police are investigating, and if the OP has relayed the outcome of this thread, that person know knows as a fact that the evidence in his possession corroborates the case the police are pursuing. If the OP tells his mate to destroy it, that sounds like conspiracy to me. Not saying anything would come of it, just that we can't advise people to commit a crime.

Think of it this way: My mate works in a shop and I'm a shoplifter. I get nicked on suspicion of shoplifting and released under investigation. The police don't know / realise the shop has CCTV, but I ask my mate who works at the shop to check the footage as I think it'll get me off. My mate checks the footage and because there's a camera I didn't know about, it shows me concealing items before leaving the shop. What do you call it if my mate agrees to delete the footage for me? The fact that the same camera system catches countless instances of shoplifting that go undetected is neither here nor there IMO.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 29 Jan 2021 - 09:46


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IanJohnsonWS14
post Fri, 29 Jan 2021 - 10:01
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Sounds very much like the driver failed the attitude test.

Amber means stop (there is a defence in some cases for not stopping)
Red really means stop - no excuses

The driver would have to demonstrate that (1) he passed on amber which could be tricky and (2) that the defence of not safe applied.

The position of the car when the lights went amber gave sufficient time to stop if the driver saw them change, if he claimed that he didn't see them until it was too late wouldn't the charged offence be proved.

The police will probably have similar video from their car (possibly better quality), does the driver really want them to start doing an assessment of their video to see if his speed increased after the lights changed to amber?


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Durzel
post Fri, 29 Jan 2021 - 13:47
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The Poiice being close is not relevant, I don't think. They may have been considering a pull from an earlier point in the video, and in any event they are trained to react quickly.

As said previously the video posted does not (in my opinion) provide a defence, in fact quite the opposite. Destroying it is somewhat of a moot point in any case since the Police aren't relying on it for conviction, the OP is relying on it to try and provide a defence. All destroying it does, or would do - if it were actually beneficial to show - would be to hamper the defence.

As for attitude tests etc - to my eyes the leading car floored it when the lights changed to amber, so that's why they were pulled, and given it was a deliberate act rather than inattentiveness the outcome was probably assured as soon as the blue lights went on.
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IanJohnsonWS14
post Fri, 29 Jan 2021 - 15:50
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This is the slip road off the northbound M6, what puzzles me is why a motorway traffic car would be leaving there unless he was already following a vehicle, their base is a little further south at Gaydon and services northwards if he was going for coffee & doughnuts.


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donniepowers
post Mon, 1 Feb 2021 - 15:06
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Watched the video. I don't think it will help him with that. He should slow down on the slow road marking. So the video might get it worse.
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