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Historic Debt Team Letter, A ten-year old conviction comes to light
tocsin1
post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 12:44
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Hello, I'm trying to help out a friend and I want to check with the experts on here what she should do. In 2008 (ie, almost ten years ago), she fell behind on payments for a car and it was seized by bailiffs. Then last month (July 2018), she received a letter from the Historic Debt Team asking for payment of a fine related to a conviction in March 2009. This was followed up two weeks later by a "further steps notice", at which point she phoned up and was told it related to a speeding incident in October 2008 (which is about ten days after the bailiffs had seized the car). I've advised her to make a SD at her local magistrate's court and this is now lined up for ten days' time. I'm now looking for advice on what is likely to happen at the hearing and what she should do. I don't know for sure, but I would guess the conviction is for FTF rather than speeding. If so, what should she do?

Many thanks in advance for helping me help someone very concerned.

This post has been edited by tocsin1: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 12:50
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post Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 12:44
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The Rookie
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 20:22
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QUOTE
TABLE B
Rehabilitation periods for certain sentences confined to young offenders
???


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southpaw82
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 21:33
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This one

QUOTE
A fine or any other sentence subject to rehabilitation under this Act, not being a sentence to which Table B below or any of subsections (3), (4A) to (8) below applies. Five years


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TheDisapprovingB...
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 13:25
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I think the relevant question then is, if a conviction is overturned by SD and the defendent then convicted again, does the original conviction date apply or is this a brand new conviction?
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Logician
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 13:40
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QUOTE (TheDisapprovingBrit @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 14:25) *
I think the relevant question then is, if a conviction is overturned by SD and the defendent then convicted again, does the original conviction date apply or is this a brand new conviction?


The effect of an SD is to set aside the original conviction, and if there is a subsequent trial and conviction, that is a new conviction, not the old conviction being re-instated.



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TonyS
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 15:32
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QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 14:40) *
The effect of an SD is to set aside the original conviction, and if there is a subsequent trial and conviction, that is a new conviction, not the old conviction being re-instated.

So a new conviction, presumable dated whenever the case is re-decided. I don't see how you could justify not declaring that when asked about convictions within the last five years.
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tocsin1
post Sun, 26 Aug 2018 - 08:35
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I've finally had sight of the paperwork. The handwritten slip from the SD hearing isn't that clear to be fair but there has now been a subsequent letter that makes it quite clear it's going to a magistrates court so that particular issue is no more. The letter says the hearing is a case management hearing and my friend need not attend. Is this the opportunity to attend and follow one of the three options outlined by notmeatloaf? Or is it better to not attend and hope it goes no further?

This post has been edited by tocsin1: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 - 21:37
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Bailiff Advice
post Sun, 26 Aug 2018 - 09:10
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QUOTE (tocsin1 @ Sun, 26 Aug 2018 - 09:35) *
I've finally had sight of the paperwork. The handwritten slip from the SD hearing isn't that clear to be fair but there has now been a subsequent letter that makes it quite clear it's going to a magistrates court so that particular issue is no more. The letter says the hearing is a case management hearing and my friend need not attend. Is this the opportunity to attend and follow one of the three options outlined by Logician? Or is it better to not attend and hope it goes no further?


Thank you so much for updating the thread. Like others on here, I was very concerned to hear that the case was supposedly to be heard in the Crown Court. Thank you for correcting this.

What your friend should have been doing BEFORE even considering the Section 14 Stat Dec approach was to obtain full details from the Historic Debt Team of the offence together with date and location of offence, date of conviction reference number etc etc. A Section 14 Stat Dec is not an application that should be undertaken without background information (as has been the case here).

In most cases that I provide assistance with, that are over 10 years old, the Case Management hearing is cancelled on the request of the prosecuting party. In any event, the background information MUST be obtained in case the hearing does proceed.

PS: What date is the hearing?

http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/hmcts-historic-debt-team

Bailiff Advice Online

This post has been edited by Bailiff Advice: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 08:48
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tocsin1
post Sun, 26 Aug 2018 - 09:47
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She established quite a bit of detail beforehand. We know the original offence was speeding and have a date and VRN. We know the subsequent offence was failure to furnish driver details and have a date for that. And we know the date of conviction in absence for failure to furnish. Is there much more that would be relevant or helpful? As for a plan of action for the case management hearing, which is just under four weeks away, when might she hear that it is going no further? If she needs to make any kind of argument at that hearing then she will need to be represented as the statutory declaration alone left her in a bit of a state. She won't be capable of "putting the CPS to proof" or any such legal argument. So should I find a solicitor now or wait for a while in the hope it is dropped?
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tocsin1
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 08:01
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Are there any further thoughts on this or should I be finding a solicitor to take the reins?
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southpaw82
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 08:36
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If she’s not capable of representing herself she needs a lawyer.


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tocsin1
post Wed, 29 Aug 2018 - 23:42
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Southpaw, thanks for your reply. I wouldn't say she's incapable of representing herself entirely. She's capable of pleading guilty! But probably not of mounting a robust defence. So is engaging a solicitor likely to be more or less expensive than taking the hit on whatever penalties might be imposed by the court? Would a McKenzie friend (be it me or a more qualified professional) be a viable option? If engaging a solicitor is the best option then so be it but it seems like a stiff price to pay for what is essentially some minor maladministration with paperwork.
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southpaw82
post Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 15:53
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Well, what is she intending to do in court? Plead guilty? Not guilty? Do a deal?


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tocsin1
post Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 21:56
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Whatever seems like the best option overall -- I'm very much open to advice on this. Maybe the best way to look at this is to ask for advice on the assumption she can represent herself. If the advice sounds too overwhelming then I'll find her some representation. Given the upcoming date is only a case management hearing then I'm wondering if not turning up is the best bet and we cross the bridge of representation if it is still heading to trial afterwards. If she turns up at a case management hearing would she be expected to participate or can she be there to observe only?
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Bailiff Advice
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 08:57
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QUOTE (tocsin1 @ Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 13:44) *
This was followed up two weeks later by a "further steps notice", at which point she phoned up and was told it related to a speeding incident in October 2008 (which is about ten days after the bailiffs had seized the car).


I do apologise, I had not read your post properly. Are you saying that her car had been seized by a bailiff in 2008 and that the incident date was around 10 days AFTER seizure? Have you checked the incident date and the conviction date?

What was the reason behind the seizure of her car at that time? Does she have any paperwork to back up the seizure?
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tocsin1
post Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 12:12
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QUOTE (Bailiff Advice @ Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 09:57) *
QUOTE (tocsin1 @ Tue, 7 Aug 2018 - 13:44) *
This was followed up two weeks later by a "further steps notice", at which point she phoned up and was told it related to a speeding incident in October 2008 (which is about ten days after the bailiffs had seized the car).


I do apologise, I had not read your post properly. Are you saying that her car had been seized by a bailiff in 2008 and that the incident date was around 10 days AFTER seizure? Have you checked the incident date and the conviction date?

What was the reason behind the seizure of her car at that time? Does she have any paperwork to back up the seizure?


Yes, a bailiff seized the car about ten days before the speeding incident. We have the incident date and the conviction date. The reason for the seizure was unrelated to the matter now in hand -- it was for failing to keep up with payments on the car. She must had been given paperwork at the time, but has looked and can't find anything now, perhaps not surprisingly given it was ten years ago.
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tocsin1
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 21:31
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I consulted a solicitor on this today. He said that if points are endorsed they will apply from the new date of conviction, so will not be immediately spent. He said there is indeed a chance the paperwork will not be available, but he expects that if the paperwork can be located then the prosecution will go ahead. He said that whilst there may be some limited benefit to his representing my friend at the case management hearing, it was unlikely to be worthwhile on a cost/benefit basis. So in conclusion, we will not attend the case management hearing and we will hope there is no further action. If it does end up going to trial then making the statutory declaration will be looking like not such a smart move with the benefit of hindsight....
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The Rookie
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 06:43
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No, the points apply from date of offence and so won’t be ‘on’ the licence at all (in effect), but as SP corrected me above they have to be declared (so it’s not a spent conviction) for 5 years, an insurer won’t be interested in an offence that old.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Logician
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 08:51
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The solicitor is simply wrong, speeding points apply from the date of the offence, points for more serious offences apply from the date of the conviction. If you do not believe us, have a look for yourself HERE. Where it states:

Speed limits

These codes must stay on a driving record for 4 years from the date of the offence.




I hope he is not charging you too much for his advice!




This post has been edited by Logician: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 08:52


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Jlc
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 09:06
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A date of conviction is just that - and as already noted insurer's should be told if asked... (Unfortunately some may load if their system can't cope with the offence date correctly)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 09:07


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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tocsin1
post Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 11:44
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Thank you for your replies. The government website does indeed look pretty clear on this matter. I will email the solicitor and ask him to reassess his view. I'm paying him enough to get this kind of thing right!
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