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PCN but no marking/bays and parked off road, Threads merged
My_space
post Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 12:41
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I have been given PCN for not parking in a marked bay however there are no markings and the location is all off road so it cannot be classed as a parking spot anyway, i will add pictures shortly

This post has been edited by My_space: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 13:47
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post Wed, 24 Oct 2018 - 12:41
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My_space
post Sun, 26 May 2019 - 11:23
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update:

got a letter from the TEC which says:

the order for recovery of the unpaid penalty charge has been revoked and the charge certifcate to be cancelled

thanks for your help guys thumbsup.gif
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hcandersen
post Sun, 26 May 2019 - 12:25
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This isn't the end.

For clarity, on what grounds did you submit your witness statement, 'I made representations but did not receive a notice of rejection'?


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My_space
post Sun, 26 May 2019 - 12:46
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 26 May 2019 - 13:25) *
This isn't the end.

For clarity, on what grounds did you submit your witness statement, 'I made representations but did not receive a notice of rejection'?


yes it was:

I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice.
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cp8759
post Sun, 26 May 2019 - 14:06
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QUOTE (My_space @ Sun, 26 May 2019 - 13:46) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 26 May 2019 - 13:25) *
This isn't the end.

For clarity, on what grounds did you submit your witness statement, 'I made representations but did not receive a notice of rejection'?


yes it was:

I made representations about the penalty charge to the enforcing authority concerned within 28 days of the service of the Notice to Owner, but did not receive a rejection notice.

So now the case will be passed to the tribunal.


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My_space
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 17:01
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the case proceeded as follows

Notice of rejection 080719
https://imgur.com/gxBPpAD

charge certificate 260719
https://imgur.com/rI1K7hG

Decision 120919
https://imgur.com/ic2xapd

review page 1
https://imgur.com/5jLQJbl
review page 2
https://imgur.com/bsEGZIE
review page 3
https://imgur.com/un1UWm4

I challenged the case based on the fact that the charge certificate was sent to early (within 28 days and not after 28 days)

Judicial review has been mentioned as the next option in the review

What do you suggest next?

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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 17:40
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No No No!
Ask for a further Review. Knapp is wrong in law to rule that a mistake in issuing the Charge Certificate can be glossed over.

If this is deemed a procedural impropriety, issuing something before the legislation permits, an adjudicator "shall" allow the appeal. No if, buts, the appellant hasn't been prejudiced malarkey. An adjudicators hands are tied with the word shall.

"If, on an appeal under this regulation, the adjudicator after considering the representations in question together with any other representations made to the effect referred to in regulation 4(2)(b) and any representations made by the enforcement authority, concludes that a ground specified in regulation 4(4) applies, he shall allow the appeal and may give such directions to the enforcement authority as he may consider appropriate for the purpose of giving effect to his decision, and such directions may in particular include directions requiring—
(a)the cancellation of the penalty charge notice;

(b)the cancellation of the notice to owner; and

©the refund of such sum (if any) as may have been paid to the enforcement authority in respect of the penalty charge".

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/7/made

If, on the other hand, he maintains that there was never a substantive appeal on the premature charge certificate that might kill the above, but it would be unfair and prejudicial IMO.


Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 17:42
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My_space
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 18:35
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 18:40) *
No No No!
Ask for a further Review. Knapp is wrong in law to rule that a mistake in issuing the Charge Certificate can be glossed over.

If this is deemed a procedural impropriety, issuing something before the legislation permits, an adjudicator "shall" allow the appeal. No if, buts, the appellant hasn't been prejudiced malarkey. An adjudicators hands are tied with the word shall.

"If, on an appeal under this regulation, the adjudicator after considering the representations in question together with any other representations made to the effect referred to in regulation 4(2)(b) and any representations made by the enforcement authority, concludes that a ground specified in regulation 4(4) applies, he shall allow the appeal and may give such directions to the enforcement authority as he may consider appropriate for the purpose of giving effect to his decision, and such directions may in particular include directions requiring—
(a)the cancellation of the penalty charge notice;

(b)the cancellation of the notice to owner; and

©the refund of such sum (if any) as may have been paid to the enforcement authority in respect of the penalty charge".

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/7/made

If, on the other hand, he maintains that there was never a substantive appeal on the premature charge certificate that might kill the above, but it would be unfair and prejudicial IMO.


Mick


how do i go about asking for a further review? it says your review request has been dismissed on trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk
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cp8759
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 18:49
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QUOTE (My_space @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 18:01) *
What do you suggest next?

Next time don't go it alone. I'm sure PMB will suggest something but it's a shame you didn't get our help at an earlier stage, this would have been an easy win.


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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 19:16
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 19:49) *
QUOTE (My_space @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 18:01) *
What do you suggest next?

Next time don't go it alone. I'm sure PMB will suggest something but it's a shame you didn't get our help at an earlier stage, this would have been an easy win.


Not without seeing a full copy of the appeal I won't. If the CC was not brought up at appeal then there is not a ground for review


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My_space
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 19:41
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 20:16) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 19:49) *
QUOTE (My_space @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 18:01) *
What do you suggest next?

Next time don't go it alone. I'm sure PMB will suggest something but it's a shame you didn't get our help at an earlier stage, this would have been an easy win.


Not without seeing a full copy of the appeal I won't. If the CC was not brought up at appeal then there is not a ground for review


it was brought up

this is the written appeal
https://imgur.com/TlKyyRx

this is the comments added to the evidence (NOR)
https://imgur.com/z5CY1nu

this is the comments added to the evidence (CC)
https://imgur.com/Hvd5F6P

all the above was brought up for the appeal and then later for the review request

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 20:01
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Ok can I see the request for the original review and I will have a look tomorrow


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My_space
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 20:09
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 21:01) *
Ok can I see the request for the original review and I will have a look tomorrow


Review request:
https://imgur.com/nHt3EGz



This post has been edited by My_space: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 20:09
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hcandersen
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 20:57
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As per PMB, the issue is not whether the taking of any step other than in accordance with the regulations took place, it's whether this was made clear in the OP's appeal. And as we've not seen this decision in full as far as I can see, then I cannot tell.

The other problem for the OP is that a review does not consider the appeal de novo and that the issue of the premature CC does not fall under the heading of new evidence which was not known at the time of the first hearing.

By going it alone the OP appears to have dragged defeat from the jaws of victory.
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Longtime Lurker
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 21:08
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Perhaps there are two angles here?

Firstly the "shall" point, which is a cast iron win in my book, but adjudicators don't like overruling each other.

Secondly, I think that by saying 'it doesn't matter, we cancelled it soon after' the council has asked the adjudicator to consider mitigation. Adjudicators can't consider mitigation, but this one has not only considered it but accepted it. It's unfair to have a blanket ban on mitigation from appellants but accept mitigation from councils.

See what PMB says, but potentially the second point might open such a can of worms that an adjudicator might accept the first point just so they don't have to consider the second one.
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 22:11
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There may be a chance please add the decision in full a copy of the NOR only first page needed and a copy of the CC again only first page


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My_space
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 16:16
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 Oct 2019 - 23:11) *
There may be a chance please add the decision in full a copy of the NOR only first page needed and a copy of the CC again only first page


Notice of rejection 080719
https://imgur.com/gxBPpAD

NOR 1st page
https://imgur.com/zQrBIfO

charge certificate 260719
https://imgur.com/rI1K7hG

Decision 120919
https://imgur.com/ic2xapd
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 22 Oct 2019 - 18:09
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That is not the whole decision. No matter I have read the review and read fully the high court case the adjudicator has relied on to reach his decision that in cancelling the CC brought adherence to the regulation into substantial compliance.

You would need to argue that the adjudicator erred in law or made a finding in fact that was so unreasonable that no rational person could make it. I do not think you could make this argument The relevance of the CC needed to be made at appeal. You could apply for a judicial review and argue that strict interpretation should be applied to the regulations but this would cost far more than the outstanding penalty, without sure success

I advise you pay the penalty and let it go, but the choice is yours


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cp8759
post Wed, 23 Oct 2019 - 16:34
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I think a substantive judicial review might succeed, but for a judicial review you'd have to persuade the court to give you permission to bring the claim. I very much doubt you'd get past the permission stage because there's no real reason why the CC issue wasn't fully argued before the tribunal, so chances are the court would refuse you permission to bring the claim.


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