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Baoli
post Sun, 24 May 2020 - 19:02
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HI,

Can somebody please have a look at following NTK from UKCPM and advise if it is compliant with POFA if not which on
points are not compliant? Many Thanks



https://drive.google.com/open?id=1d7xCq4ixj...9eKZ-fvNJPAlaDu




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post Sun, 24 May 2020 - 19:02
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 11:45
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Well its better for you ot havea read through and see if their WS is the usual copy and paste rubbish, and see if its been rebutted before.

If they posted then unless you have permission to email, youre stuck posting it to them.
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Baoli
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 11:57
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 12:45) *
Well its better for you ot havea read through and see if their WS is the usual copy and paste rubbish, and see if its been rebutted before.

If they posted then unless you have permission to email, youre stuck posting it to them.



How i will know that i have permission to email? they have sent us document through email before when we responsed to LBC, if i can not email can i post it tomorrow will it considered delivered on 28/05/20?

I have a read through of their WS and they addressed point by point, they have mentioned different cases like VCS vs HM rev, Elliot vs loake, PE vs beavis and it signed by jack chapman who states he is the employee of the company

This post has been edited by Baoli: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 11:58
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 12:24
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Do both. Email lAND post. State that you hacve emailed due to these times

ALL Those cases have been *extensibely* covered. EvL for example is laughable - its not worked for them once. Have you found that out from googling and reading, or doing a forum search>
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Baoli
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 12:40
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 13:24) *
Do both. Email lAND post. State that you hacve emailed due to these times

ALL Those cases have been *extensibely* covered. EvL for example is laughable - its not worked for them once. Have you found that out from googling and reading, or doing a forum search>



Hi,

Just received an email from the court that hearing is adjourned and will be on 06 july by telephone. please see below what court have sent.

UPON the court considering this hearing is suitable for relisting to a telephone hearing:
IT IS ORDERED: -
1. The claimant is ordered to arrange the remote hearing.
TAKE NOTICE that the Small Claim Hearing will take place on
6th of July 2020
at the County Court at
When you should attend BY TELEPHONE
1 hour has been allowed for the Hearing
2. The telephone hearing must be arranged through BT-Connect or other court-approved provider.
PLEASE NOTE:
This is a telephone hearing and it is the responsibility of the legal representative for the Claimant to
arrange this, (or hearings for applications should be arranged by the Applicant’s representative) with a
telecommunications provider from the approved panel of service providers.
British Telecoms Plc: 0800 028 4194



- please only use for the purpose of this hearing.
For further guidance on telephone hearings please visit the Justice website: http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/
courts-and-tribunals/courts/telephone-hearings.htm
Time estimates for hearings must be accurate as they will not be allowed to overrun. Please note the time estimate
includes the Judges time for reading the papers unless the time estimate gives a specific time estimate for judicial
reading time.
4. The parties must ensure that all documents to be relied upon at the hearing are filed and served no later than
2pm two days before the hearing. Parties must ensure that any skeleton arguments are filed at court electronically
with the case name, number and hearing date and FOR TELEPHONE HEARING in the subject title, even if
already filed in hard copy form.
Please Note: This case may be released to another Judge, possibly at a different Court


is telephone hearing good and now we have more time to prepare WS?
thanks
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 13:00
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4) is the key bit
Telepphone hearing isnt amazing, but better than papers only.

You do indeed now have more time, as you are told - so use this time WELL
You have a job to do - go to the MSE Forum, and read the PARKING su forum. There is a NEWBIES thread there which has useful info on WS, and there is a ABUSE OF PROCESS thread for you to find and read as well.
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Baoli
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 13:20
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 14:00) *
4) is the key bit
Telepphone hearing isnt amazing, but better than papers only.

You do indeed now have more time, as you are told - so use this time WELL
You have a job to do - go to the MSE Forum, and read the PARKING su forum. There is a NEWBIES thread there which has useful info on WS, and there is a ABUSE OF PROCESS thread for you to find and read as well.


Can we ask for personal hearing rather than telephone?

so we send the document through email to court on same email address we received from and claimant 2 days before the hearing date. if the hard copies sent when they can be sent?

i will read through mse forum and will try to update our WS. the case is under my wife name but i am preparing everything for her.

would you be able to have a look at the WS once i updated it also i will upload their WS for you to have a look and advice if possible please?

Do you think shall i remove below from our WS about date and time stamp?

Date and time stamp on NTK looks to have been put using a computer as picture originally taken with date and stamp with in camera feature are blended into the background. They are put to strict proof that these stamps are real as anybody can put these stamps using computer.

The other pictures, which was sent through to us by email latter, have been taken in different bay as they said in their statement, date and time stamps have been put using a computer not by the in camera feature so they have to prove that it was taken on the same day. (EXHIBIT E)


many thanks

This post has been edited by Baoli: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 13:41
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 13:52
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Well, your Order would tell you if you can reques t or not - usually as this was Ordered without a hearing you can object by filing an application within 7 days. DFoes it state that on there?

AGain, MSE forum has some suggestions on how to put together a TELEPHONE HEARING BUNDLE, including a cover sheet essentially asking the court to strike the claim out as it fails the CRA2015; have you read up on the ABUSE OF PROCESS yet, as I presume your claim has at least £60 added for "damages" or "costs" or some other spuriopus reason - if so then you MUST MUST MUST read up. There are two or more judgements for you to append.

Well unless youre claiming the vehicle wasnt there then, and can prove it, what purpose does your contention the stamps were put on after *serve*? We dont know, you know, as its your claim.
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Baoli
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 14:10
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 14:52) *
Well, your Order would tell you if you can reques t or not - usually as this was Ordered without a hearing you can object by filing an application within 7 days. DFoes it state that on there?

AGain, MSE forum has some suggestions on how to put together a TELEPHONE HEARING BUNDLE, including a cover sheet essentially asking the court to strike the claim out as it fails the CRA2015; have you read up on the ABUSE OF PROCESS yet, as I presume your claim has at least £60 added for "damages" or "costs" or some other spuriopus reason - if so then you MUST MUST MUST read up. There are two or more judgements for you to append.

Well unless youre claiming the vehicle wasnt there then, and can prove it, what purpose does your contention the stamps were put on after *serve*? We dont know, you know, as its your claim.



I am reading through Abuse of power thread and will include the judgement in the WS.

we have a family member living there so we go there often and car can be seen parked in different bays on different days. There was in the news that they have issued tickets for putting fake sign so thats why was thinking if this would help?

thanks


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Sheffield Dave
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 15:30
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There is no such thing as "our WS". The WS belongs to whoever the witness is. Most commonly in small-claims, there is only one witness for the defence, and that witness is the same person as the defendant. So presumably your wife is the defendant, is the sole witness, and you are helping her to prepare papers. She must attend court (i.e. the phone hearing); you can only be involved in the hearing if you are either acting as her lay representative, or you are a second witness (but not both).

Note also that the WS is a signed statement of truth; you can't write your wife's witness statement - but you can of course help her to prepare it.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 15:45
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Im still confused how time stamps is a problem. Do you claim the vehicle was not there at the times they have claimed? yes or no. If no, then the time stamps are irrelevantl

Dispute relevant facts....

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Baoli
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 11:18
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QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 16:30) *
There is no such thing as "our WS". The WS belongs to whoever the witness is. Most commonly in small-claims, there is only one witness for the defence, and that witness is the same person as the defendant. So presumably your wife is the defendant, is the sole witness, and you are helping her to prepare papers. She must attend court (i.e. the phone hearing); you can only be involved in the hearing if you are either acting as her lay representative, or you are a second witness (but not both).

Note also that the WS is a signed statement of truth; you can't write your wife's witness statement - but you can of course help her to prepare it.


Hi Sheffield Dave,

Thanks for your input.

How can I act as lay representative or second witness? Is second witness allowed to speak at hearing?

thanks

QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Tue, 26 May 2020 - 16:45) *
Im still confused how time stamps is a problem. Do you claim the vehicle was not there at the times they have claimed? yes or no. If no, then the time stamps are irrelevantl

Dispute relevant facts....



Hi nosferatu1001,

ok i will remove about time stamps and will focus on other things?

thank you.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 11:44
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You state to the court you are there as a lay rep, and you have. A copy of the lay rep act with you so you can show the court your right to be there.

If you're a witness to events, and want to speak, you attend but only speak when asked. You cannot act for the defendant.


Why thee question? You know if the time stamps matter or not. If they don't matter, because you do not dispute the times the vehicle was there, then don't talk about th,e.
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Baoli
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 12:04
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 12:44) *
You state to the court you are there as a lay rep, and you have. A copy of the lay rep act with you so you can show the court your right to be there.

If you're a witness to events, and want to speak, you attend but only speak when asked. You cannot act for the defendant.


Why thee question? You know if the time stamps matter or not. If they don't matter, because you do not dispute the times the vehicle was there, then don't talk about th,e.


thanks for advice.

in their WS they say that car was parked then left and came back within 12 hours and as there is condition of no return within 12 hours thats why they issued PCN for overstay. Only 2 Photos on NTK one taken at 15:13:56 and other at 15:14:15. As the car can be observed parked on the site on different days and times and this company been involved in issuing fake tickets by putting fake photos so just wanted to challenge their credibility for issuing of camera ticket as you know these companies they can go to any length to issue tickets.

but i will remove this if its not helpful.

many thanks
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Sheffield Dave
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 12:05
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Note that it's fairly unusual to have a second witness in cases like this, unless you personally have seen stuff which is relevant to the case, but which your wife didn't see. Having both husband and wife as witnesses to the same thing isn't going to impress the judge more than just a single witness.

If anyone submits a WS then attends, then they can be questioned about it by the judge, and by the claimant's representative.

Someone has to speak on behalf of the defendant. Usually this is just the defendant, representing themselves; but if they don't feel confident doing that, then a lay rep can act on their behalf. The three important constraints of a lay rep are that they don't get paid, they can't act as a witness, and the defendant must still attend the hearing.

The defendant / lay rep argues their case before the judge, and gets to question the claimant's witness in the unlikely event they actually attend court. Similarly, the claimant's rep can question your witness(es) if they attend. A witness doesn't have to attend, but the judge can apply less weight to their WS in that case.

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Baoli
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 12:13
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QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 13:05) *
Note that it's fairly unusual to have a second witness in cases like this, unless you personally have seen stuff which is relevant to the case, but which your wife didn't see. Having both husband and wife as witnesses to the same thing isn't going to impress the judge more than just a single witness.

If anyone submits a WS then attends, then they can be questioned about it by the judge, and by the claimant's representative.

Someone has to speak on behalf of the defendant. Usually this is just the defendant, representing themselves; but if they don't feel confident doing that, then a lay rep can act on their behalf. The three important constraints of a lay rep are that they don't get paid, they can't act as a witness, and the defendant must still attend the hearing.

The defendant / lay rep argues their case before the judge, and gets to question the claimant's witness in the unlikely event they actually attend court. Similarly, the claimant's rep can question your witness(es) if they attend. A witness doesn't have to attend, but the judge can apply less weight to their WS in that case.


Hi,

thanks for detailed explanation.

so its only enough to tell court that you are a lay rep? I have found following in Practice direction 27 about lay rep.

Representation at a hearing
3.1 In this paragraph:

(1) a lawyer means a barrister, a solicitor or a legal executive employed by a solicitor or any other person authorised under the Legal Services Act 2007 to act as a litigator or advocate; and

(2) a lay representative means any other person.

3.2

(1) A party may present his own case at a hearing or a lawyer or lay representative may present it for him.

(2) The Lay Representatives (Right of Audience) Order 1999 provides that a lay representative may not exercise any right of audience:–

(a) where his client does not attend the hearing;

(b) at any stage after judgment; or

© on any appeal brought against any decision made by the district judge in the proceedings.

(3) However the court, exercising its general discretion to hear anybody, may hear a lay representative even in circumstances excluded by the Order.

(4) Any of its officers or employees may represent a corporate party.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 13:18
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Talk about waffling on.

Weight of evidence should not be taken literally.

Order your thoughts and the defence.

What is happening: A is claiming a sum from B. B will not pay unless ordered by the court. So you're in court.

IMO
Step 1 - irrespective of the sum demanded, in the circumstances of the case is A permitted to demand anything from B?
Issues: claim in respect of a breach of contract by C.
C cannot be identified by A who therefore relies on the provisions of PoFA to 'to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle', in this case B.

This ability is subject to conditions which if not met by A render any claim against B unenforceable because B was not party to the contract.

You contest that the conditions were met.

*********
*********

Step 2 - if the court accept that A may pursue B in lieu of C, then have correct procedures been followed?
You would argue no.
Personally, I think you should start with the gap of ** months between the NTK and LBC and how it was filled e.g. with a relentless stream of letters from so-called debt collectors each, as the court will see, worded to coerce the recipient into paying a sum in excess of the parking charge and with threats that the debt would grow with time. Apart from the fact that the claimant is empowered to use the provisions of PoFA to pursue the keeper only for the parking charge, you would argue that the claimant's 'right to pursue' refers to the timely use of prescribed procedures and not the creation a hiatus in the process filled with letters designed to coerce the recipient.

Step 3 - if the court accept that the claimant may pursue the defendant and that their procedures do not give rise to a reason for the court to dismiss their claim, then you would refer the court again to the issue of the sum demanded.
PoFA limits A's claim to the 'parking charge' which in this case was £***. However, the court will see that excluding costs incurred in issuing proceedings the claimant is claiming £** which is **% of the parking charge.

You could reverse steps 1 and 2.

Step 4 - if all the above is OK, you dispute that any parking charge is due because no relevant obligation arose under a relevant contract.

********
*******

Is my take.

So, before you write an incoherent version of War and Peace, put yourself in the court's shoes. Focus, structure, facts and opinion on the interpretation of the law.



This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 27 May 2020 - 13:19
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 15:40
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Ok I still don't understand op

Was
The
Car
There
When
They
Allege.

Yes or no.

If yes, then disputing the time stamps serves zero purpose.

If no, THEN disputing the time stamps can have a purpose.

You know the answers here. We don't.
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Baoli
post Fri, 29 May 2020 - 11:23
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 14:18) *
Talk about waffling on.

Weight of evidence should not be taken literally.

Order your thoughts and the defence.

What is happening: A is claiming a sum from B. B will not pay unless ordered by the court. So you're in court.

IMO
Step 1 - irrespective of the sum demanded, in the circumstances of the case is A permitted to demand anything from B?
Issues: claim in respect of a breach of contract by C.
C cannot be identified by A who therefore relies on the provisions of PoFA to 'to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle', in this case B.

This ability is subject to conditions which if not met by A render any claim against B unenforceable because B was not party to the contract.

You contest that the conditions were met.

*********
*********

Step 2 - if the court accept that A may pursue B in lieu of C, then have correct procedures been followed?
You would argue no.
Personally, I think you should start with the gap of ** months between the NTK and LBC and how it was filled e.g. with a relentless stream of letters from so-called debt collectors each, as the court will see, worded to coerce the recipient into paying a sum in excess of the parking charge and with threats that the debt would grow with time. Apart from the fact that the claimant is empowered to use the provisions of PoFA to pursue the keeper only for the parking charge, you would argue that the claimant's 'right to pursue' refers to the timely use of prescribed procedures and not the creation a hiatus in the process filled with letters designed to coerce the recipient.

Step 3 - if the court accept that the claimant may pursue the defendant and that their procedures do not give rise to a reason for the court to dismiss their claim, then you would refer the court again to the issue of the sum demanded.
PoFA limits A's claim to the 'parking charge' which in this case was £***. However, the court will see that excluding costs incurred in issuing proceedings the claimant is claiming £** which is **% of the parking charge.

You could reverse steps 1 and 2.

Step 4 - if all the above is OK, you dispute that any parking charge is due because no relevant obligation arose under a relevant contract.

********
*******

Is my take.



So, before you write an incoherent version of War and Peace, put yourself in the court's shoes. Focus, structure, facts and opinion on the interpretation of the law.



Hi,

thanks for reply.

i will try to put all the points as you said.



QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 16:40) *
Ok I still don't understand op

Was
The
Car
There
When
They
Allege.

Yes or no.

If yes, then disputing the time stamps serves zero purpose.

If no, THEN disputing the time stamps can have a purpose.

You know the answers here. We don't.



hi,

Yes the car was there. so i will remove all these and focus on other things.

Thank you
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Baoli
post Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 19:16
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hi Everyone, Just a quick update. We had telephone court hearing and we won the case. cost awarded. Case was dismissed on the basis of non compliant NTK with POFA 2012.

thanks for all your help

This post has been edited by Baoli: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 - 09:12
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