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Help I’m thinking about giving in and paying
Themalibukid
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 07:47
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Dear All
I am trying to decide what I should do in respect of this claim against me and would really appreciate so sage advice at this point, I am wavering towards giving in !
Essentially I received a PCN for failure to correctly display in 28/8/17.
At the time I purchased a ticket but it was placed on the dash and was not visible to their satisfaction. We still have the original ticket. The driver parked the car and I am the registered keeper of the vehicle.
The registered keeper details having been obtained from DVLA their next correspondence was a NTK sent 8/11/17 this being 75 days after the ticket was issued.
It is my understanding that this must be served within 56 days ?
On that NTK the balance due is alleged to be a balance of £100, it is my understanding that no more may be recovered than that specified on the NTK ?
Naturally I responded and stated that I would not identify the driver, that they should not add any further costs which would amount to ‘double recovery’ and that they should not pass my details onto any debt recovery company as this would be a breach of DVLA data rules ?
I further pointed out that no loss had been incurred by any party as the full cost of parking had been paid prior to the PCN being issued.
On 6/4/2018 I received a letter from a ‘new’ company TNC Parking services requesting £179 and threatened doorstep collection services. I wrote to them and explained that I would only deal with Armtrac Security (the original claimant also known as KBT) or a court summons. This appears to be in breach of DVLA rules governing passing on data?
On 13/12/17 I received a letter from KBT Armtrac giving final notice for £60 to be paid, with an illustration of how a further £100 could be added as court costs.
On 17/1/18 I received a letter from KBT Armtrac requesting £100 with 7 days.
Once again I replied restating the facts that a ticket was purchased and that any court would consider the case “de minimis” and a waste of court time. I stated that should they continue to waste both mine and the courts time that I would be seeking costs.
Nothing else was heard until 29/11/18 where a letter was received requesting an outstanding balance of £160 be paid to BW Legal who are their approved legal service provider.
On 13/12/18 I received a letter from BW Legal requesting £160.
On 17/12/18 I received a letter from BW Legal saying that they were initiating court proceedings and would be claiming £172.26 plus costs total £247.26.
At the onset of the process I engaged with the claimant and at all further times. I have copies of all correspondence, both ways, and proofs of signed for receipt of all my replies.
My question is simple, do I have sufficient information and grounds to mount an effective challenge to this claim ?
Have I demonstrated a strong enough defence or should I give in ?
If it goes to court should I have representation on the day ?
What should I do next ?



Sent from iPad Air

This post has been edited by Themalibukid: Mon, 6 May 2019 - 08:51
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post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 07:47
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Fluffykins
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 08:16
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ALL references to the person driving the car are simply "the driver". Nothing else. I suggest you edit your post as soon as possible!
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Themalibukid
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 08:52
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Doh !
Thanks
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Gary Bloke
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 09:13
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Don't cave in! You have a watertight case against them.
(1) You paid for the parking and have the ticket. They have incurred no loss so cannot claim for damages.
(2) To hold the keeper liable under POFA2012 the NTK must be delivered to the keeper no later than 56 days after the date of the alleged breach of parking contract. They delivered on day 75 so they have no possibility of holding the keeper liable. Here is a guide to keeper liability:
Parking Cowboys - keeper liability
(3) They cannot attempt to recover more than the amount stated on the NTK.
(4) DVLA does not allow debts to be sold on to debt collectors. See Parking Prankster - selling on debts
(5) The letter saying that court proceedings were being initiated dated from December 2018, so if you have not heard anything more by now (5 months later) the chances are that this was just an idle threat. You should wait and see if they send you a Letter Before County Court Claim (LBCCC) - which you then acknowledge (or whatever - am no expert here) according to the practice direction for these cases. I don't think you need to do anything unless you receive this formal statement that proceedings will be started.

This post has been edited by Gary Bloke: Mon, 6 May 2019 - 09:21
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Jlc
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 09:24
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Indeed, do nothing for now. They haven't 'sold' the debt on so there's no DVLA issue.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Themalibukid
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 10:33
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Thanks for all your words of support!
To clarify this is the front page of the latest document received yesterday.
Are you guys saying that I should expect a letter to follow this or could I check online to confirm it’s valid ?
If they are forging court papers that takes it to a whole new level !
Attached Image

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ostell
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 11:29
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That's a genuine claim form from Northampton. First thing to do is to acknowledge the claim online using the details and password on the form. Write noting in the defence.
This gives you 33 days from date of issue to get your defence to the court.

How was the ticket incorrectly displayed? Was that "offence" listed on the signs?

The amount seems to have grown to £172.62 without any explanation when the Particulars of claim is only claiming £100. They cannot claim from the keeper more than the original NTK amount.

So prepare a defence using what uyou can find on the forum and put it on here first for critique.

Edit:

I've looked at the area on Google maps and it seems that Llawnroc infest the area. What was the name on the signs and the ticket you received? Your alleged contract appears to be with Llawnroc and a third party company KBT are taking you to court. Check who is who

This post has been edited by ostell: Mon, 6 May 2019 - 15:09
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Themalibukid
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 14:45
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Hi
The offence was to incorrectly display. To be honest it was a genuine mistake on the part of the driver and there was as much writing on one side of the ticket as the other.
The claim appears to be for £100 plus £60 admin plus about £12 interest on the debt.
I don’t have a photo of the sign which was sandy acres beach car park hayle nr st ives Cornwall.
The rest I will. check and update later 👍
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Jlc
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 15:00
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Ah, don't ignore that one!!!

Do you have pictures of how the ticket was displayed?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 15:08
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What I am saying is that if the signs state one company name then another company raises a court claim then that is not allowed. Armtrac and KBT are seperate companies.

POFA 4 (5) states that the maximum sum that the keeper can be liable for is the amount on the initial PCN. If they don't know the driver then they can't claim the extra
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Jlc
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 15:35
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QUOTE (ostell @ Mon, 6 May 2019 - 16:08) *
Armtrac and KBT are seperate companies.

KBT Cornwall Ltd (Trading As Armtrac Security Services)?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 17:46
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I had a look on companies house and they both appeared to be seperate companies. Could you check the documents you've received just to check
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Themalibukid
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 22:31
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Here’s the original letter showing the relationship between Armtrac and KBT

Attached thumbnail(s)
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ostell
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 06:53
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Sorry , yes looks like a t/a I thought I found Armtrac as a seperate company. Sorry about the false hope.
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Themalibukid
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 14:08
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Just trying to acknowledge of service online using moneyclaim.gov.uk
Can’t find any way of using claim number and password they sent on this page do I need to create an account to do it?
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Themalibukid
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 14:44
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Ok so you do have to register with the service to do AOS online.
right AOS submitted 7/5/19 3.40pm
I ticked defend all of claim so I’m gonna need a defence !
I’ll do some digging and see if I can get something up for you guys to critique if that’s ok 👍
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Themalibukid
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 21:35
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Have just sent the following letter to bw Legal

I am the keeper of the vehicle in question and am now in receipt of the claim form from county court business centre,Northampton.

I am writing to formally request a copy of all paperwork on which you intend to rely in court as I look to narrow the issues as per Court Directives. I have no doubt that you will have completed due diligence on your client's evidence prior to raising the claim, I therefore expect you to be able to send this to me within 7 days.
I further request full S.A.R. Disclosure for all data held by you and your client about me by return.
In order to provide me with an audit trail for the request I have sent this recorded signed for.

I look forward to your reply.

Yours faithfully,
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Jlc
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 21:38
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You will have to submit a SAR to each data controller.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Themalibukid
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 17:28
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Ok I’m happy to write to Armtrac, especially if it will inconvenience them !
Can I expect them to include copies of my correspondence with them as part of the bundle?
What is my best outcome here ? That they sign for my letter and don’t comply ?
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Redivi
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 18:12
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A reply to an SAR request must contain everything they have

If it doesn't and you've kept your own copies, you will have ammunition for a complaint to the ICO

Don't send the request "signed for"
Apart from the extra cost, parking companies know that such letters contain something they don't want to receive and can refuse

Send it ordinary First Class and ask the Post Office for a free certificate of sending
The Interpretation Act says that it's delivered two business days later unless Armtrac can prove it wasn't
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