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P4Parking and TNC - No POPLA code given - NtK breaches POFA 2012
Captainships
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 13:16
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Hi guys,

I need your advice on whether I am doing the right things in regard to a private PCN. I have listed the relevant facts below and also pasted my latest email to TNC (copying in P4Parking), which I hope explains where I am at.



Here are the facts/issues:


-I own a house on a private development. The parking spaces on that land is "managed by P4Parking" as per the signs around the land.

-I received a PCN on my car on 14 October 2019 (I subsequently lost this and have no pics). There was no signage immediately next to where the car was. Also worthy of note, all the signs have the words "drivers MAY be issued a PCN".

- On the 14 Nov (the date on the letter) I receive a 'Notice to Keeper or Hirer' from TNC Parking Services (also known as TNC Collections and TNC Management). TNC state that they got my details from DVLA and that if I don't tell them who the driver was, they (yes they as in TNC) have the right pursue me for the fee.

- On that 14 Nov letter, TNC also state that if I want to appeal, I must appeal to P4Parking and not them

-Also on that 14 Nov letter, TNC adds a £25 admin fee on top of the £100

- I appealed to P4Parking on number of grounds. in fact, I used the same letter and arguments for a previous ticket at the same place which was cancelled.

-I didn't get a reply from P4Parking, instead I got a rejection letter from TNC without a POPLA code.

-I informed P4Parking that I have no appeal POPLA code and they tell me that it was sent to me. I asked them to provide me the code again, but they don't. Instead they send me some postal proof of delivery. However, I insisted that I didn't receive it.

-P4Parking then provides me the POPLA code but only after the deadline had passed.

-In the meantime, I am also getting letters from TNC asking me to pay up. Also, in the meantime, P4Parking told me not to content them anymore and to deal with TNC.

-All of my correspondences have been in writing (email), including my requests to be sent the POPLA code.




Having now had the time to read the NtK from TNC (14 Nov) properly, I have realised that it had failed to meet the POFA 2012 requirements on a number of grounds. It also failed to meet the BPA standards. Below is the email I have sent to TNC copying in P4Parking.
TNC subsequently keep asking me to call them, and I have kept insisting they reply to me in writing (email).



Please can you advise what I should do next? My intention is to write to POPLA and BPA explaining to them what has happened.




HERE IS MY LATEST EMAIL TO TNC copying in P4Parking:




Dear Sir/Madam

RE: The unlawful issue of a ‘Notice to Keeper’ – REF PXXXXXX


Your ‘Notice to Keeper’ (NtK) dated 14 November 2019 did not comply with the legal requirements as set out in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA), and as such, you have no legal right to pursue me, the registered keeper, for the alleged debt owed. Additionally, by virtue of your conduct, as detailed below, TNC and P4Parking have both breached several of BPA’s Code of Practice.

How you have failed to comply with the law and BPA’s Code of Practice is detailed below.

In light of these breaches, you must cease to pursue me, the registered keeper, for the alleged debt owed.

Please be advised that any further demand for payment will be considered harassment.

Please also be on notice that I may be contacting DVLA, BPA, TSA, and the ICO to investigate TNC and P4Parking for breaches of various laws and regulations, including breaches of data protection laws and trading standards.

These are the ways in which your ‘Notice to Keeper’ failed to comply with PoFA 2012:

1. It did not identify the Creditor
a. Whilst your ‘Notice to Keeper’ requests a payment to be made to TNC, there is no specific identification of the “Creditor”, who may, in law, be TNC or P4Parking or, as it appears that P4Parking only manage parking on the land, some other party. PoFA requires a ‘Notice to Keeper’ to have words to the effect that “The Creditor is….” - your NtK fails to do this.

b. The wording of Paragraph 9(2)(h) of Schedule 4 of PoFA does not indicate that the “creditor must be named, but “identified”. To “identify” a “Creditor”, a parking company must do more than name that person/company. The driver is entitled to know the identity of the party with whom he/she has legally contracted. This view is also supported by the Secretary of State for Transport.


2. It states that TNC has the right to recover any unpaid amount of the charge
a. This is against the requirement of PoFA 2012, which specifically states the following under schedule 8 (2) (f) (ii): “the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid.” TNC is not the Creditor and therefore it had no right to state what it did in the NtK.


3. It added an arbitrary additional fee (£25) on top of what was allegedly owed with a threat of more additions without specifying a maximum
a. This is against Schedule 4, paragraph 5 of PoFA 2012 which states that the NtK must state the maximum amount recoverable from the registered keeper. TNC’s NtK failed to comply with this.


4. It failed to inform the registered keeper of any discounts
a. This is against PoFA 2012, paragraph 8 (2) (g), which states that the NtK must “inform the keeper of any discount offered for prompt payment…”


Below are some of the ways in which TNC breached several of the BPA Code of Practice (Version 8 of January 2020):

· 23.6 of the Code states: “When you receive a appeal about the issue of a parking charge, you must stop work on processing the charge immediately. You must not increase the charge until you have replied to the appeal.”
o TNC breached this code by adding a £25 admin fee even before receiving and considering the appeal


· 23.12 of the Code states: “If you reject an appeal you must: tell the motorist how to make an appeal to IAS [POPLA]. This includes providing a template ‘notice of appeal’ form or a link to the appropriate website for lodging an appeal and a valid 10-digit verification code.
o TNC breached this code by not providing a POPLA code in the rejection letter dated 4 December 2019


· 23.12 of the Code also states that ““If you reject an appeal you must give the motorist a reasonable amount of time to pay the charge before restarting the collection process. We recommend that you allow at least 35 days from the date you rejected the challenge.
o TNC did not do this and therefore breached this code


· If TNC are acting as a sun-contractor to P4Parking, then TNC and P4Parking have both breached the BPA code by virtue of Code 15.1 which states: “You may use sub-contractors to carry out individual tasks to help you in your parking management and enforcement responsibilities. If you do this, you are responsible for making sure the sub-contractor keeps to the Code as if you were carrying out the tasks. If the subcontractor does not keep to the Code, this failure will be treated as an act of non-compliance by you.”


· Code 21.12 states: “An effective ‘Notice to Keeper’ within the meaning of POFA 2012, must meet the requirements of Schedule 4 of the Act.” Code 21.2 further states: “As long as the strict conditions of Schedule 4 are met, you may claim payment from the keeper or the hirer of the vehicle rather than from the driver. To do this you need to follow the procedures set out in the Schedule.”
o As evidenced above, TNC have failed to meet the requirements of POFA 2012 and therefore must now cease to pursue the registered keeper.



In addition to all of these failures to meet the requirements of PoFA 2012 and BPA Code of Practice, TNC has also failed to provide any evidence that it, or a third party, is entitled to enforce an alleged breach of contractual terms and conditions.
In light of all of these failures, please cease pursuing me, the registered keeper, for the alleged debt owed.


Regards,

XXXX

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post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 13:16
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Jlc
post Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 13:36
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QUOTE (Captainships @ Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 13:16) *
I own a house on a private development.

Please expand - particularly around the parking.

QUOTE (Captainships @ Mon, 20 Jan 2020 - 13:16) *
In light of all of these failures, please cease pursuing me, the registered keeper, for the alleged debt owed.

They can continue to pursue the keeper on the basis they were driving. They would need to show on the balance of probabilities that the keeper was driving.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Captainships
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 10:10
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This is the location: https://goo.gl/maps/2UYM6J82Ae3FULyY9

These were new homes recently built.

In regards to them still pursuing me, can I not just inform them that I was not the driver at the time?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 11:32
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If that was not the case, yes (but don't lie).

But don't expect them to stop chasing you!

Your responce is badly worded, there was nothing 'unlawful' about it, failure to comply with PoFA means they can't hold the keeper liable, but doesn't in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM make it unlawful.

Complain to the BPA about their failure to provide a POPLA code you can use.

I can guarantee they have no proof of delivery, proof of postage perhaps.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 11:34


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Captainships
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 11:50
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Thanks for the feedback.

I wasn't the driver. So won't be a lie.


TNC are not answering any of my question or points raised. They keep emailing me asking me to call them. It is P4Parking that responded to an earlier email I had sent to TNC (TNC obviously just forwarded it to them without my permission) - in that email from P4Parking , they said that they had sent a letter with POPLA code. However, I never received anything from P4Parking. I only received a rejection letter from TNC without a POPLA code.

I am trying to communicate with both of these firms via email but they are not engaging - TNC keeps threatening me saying they will escalate matters if I don't call them.



.

This post has been edited by Captainships: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 11:53
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Jlc
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 12:13
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QUOTE (Captainships @ Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 10:10) *

I mean around any 'ownership' you have, e.g. freehold/leasehold, particularly around the parking spot.

QUOTE (Captainships @ Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 10:10) *
In regards to them still pursuing me, can I not just inform them that I was not the driver at the time?

You can tell them but it won't stop them. If you can provide 'proof' (such as being out the country for example) then that may be different.

They have either met the necessary PoFA conditions and have keeper liability (it appears not) or they can still seek legal remedy (but may fail).


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 12:19
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TNC are just a debt collector, why would they stop?

P4P just want your money, why would they stop?

If you really want them to stop you must get a POPLA code via a complaint to the BP{A, but that may not work.

Otherwise you write to P4P (ONLY, don't engage with TNC at all) with a properly researched letter (not that one then) stating lack of PoFA compliance and that you were not the driver. Don't expect them to stop with the junkmail, but hopefully enough to put them off a court claim.

Of course you could name the driver, but then they would not have the benefit of the cast iron defence you have so probably not worthwhile.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 13:19
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TNC can do absolutely nothing
Ignore TNC
Ignore them. Completely. Wastes of oxygen

COmplain to the BPA that the operator has not served you with a POPLAcode, and its entirely within their gift to send a new one as they only get charged when a code is USED. So there is no loss to then.
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Jlc
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 14:00
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I believe you'll find a few threads of apparent lack of POPLA codes from this setup... Definitely complain to the BPA.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Captainships
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 14:15
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Thanks guys, I will write to BPA. Is it also worth wriute to POPLA even without a code? I.e. to post them the appeal and explain the situation?


And what about the point that P4Parking are saying that they apparently sent a letter with the POPLA code? If they did, I never received it and I have email evidence of requesting them for it even before the deadline was passed.

Finally, how can TNC be debt collectors when it was them that issued the NtK and also the appeal rejection letter?

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The Rookie
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 14:45
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QUOTE (Captainships @ Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 14:15) *
Is it also worth wriute to POPLA even without a code? I.e. to post them the appeal and explain the situation?

Totally pointless, they will not even look at it.

No valid code, no action.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Captainships
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 15:04
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OK. I have emailed BPA.

Given the scenario, is it likely that they will take me to court?
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The Rookie
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 15:10
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Well showing you didn't understand PoFA increased the risk anyway!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 15:38
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Noone cares about debt collectors, at all. It doesnt matter what they also do .They dont matter.
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Captainships
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 16:46
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 15:10) *
Well showing you didn't understand PoFA increased the risk anyway!


Which part didn't I understand?
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 21 Jan 2020 - 17:18
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That you think not meeting the requirements of POFA made their invoice "unlawful".
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