Bus Lane PCN Enforcement Notice, North Street, Romford |
Bus Lane PCN Enforcement Notice, North Street, Romford |
Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 12:54
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 86 Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Member No.: 94,234 |
This case is related to the following Linked thread
Attached is an image of the violation. which has taken place on North Street in Romford near my work. [attachment=51474:hav_0.jpg] I approach North Street from Cedar Road and naturally look right to check oncoming traffic to turn into the road going Northbound. I seem to have missed the sign on the left which I couldn't see as the car is facing the road at an angle away from the sign. [attachment=51475:hav_2.jpg] [attachment=51476:hav_3.jpg] [attachment=51477:hav_4.jpg] [attachment=51478:hav_5.jpg] Any help with this would be greatly appreciated as it will help me with a bigger problem of multiple Enforcement Notices for the same offence. |
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Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 12:54
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Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 23:44
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Two possible arguments. The signage is inadequate. The road layout you mention, if guidance is followed should have sign 962 on cedar rd. and the sign 959 on north st is very high out of a drivers eyeline
15.16 page 133 http://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsm/tsm-chapter-03.pdf The EN makes repeated reference to notice to owner and gives grounds for representation and appeal that would have no part in bus lane enforcement look at the differences in the regulation against what the EN tells you http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/schedule/1/enacted -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 07:43
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#3
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Well, if the Notice refers to the TMA 2004 and procedural impropriety take them up on their kind offer.
The Enforcement Notice is a nullity because it's a hybrid --we even have a 56 day rule which has never related to the legislation noted at the top of the document. Shambles!!! Mick |
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Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 08:54
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,265 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
should have sign 962 on cedar rd. A point slightly enhanced by there being just that on the previous side road, Brooklands approach. Quick question for OP; where do you go from North St.? -------------------- |
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Mon, 30 Oct 2017 - 22:39
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 86 Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Member No.: 94,234 |
should have sign 962 on cedar rd. A point slightly enhanced by there being just that on the previous side road, Brooklands approach. Quick question for OP; where do you go from North St.? From Norh Street I normally turn right onto the A12 Eastern Avenue going East. Sometimes I go West if I'm going to London. This post has been edited by carlosescobar: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 00:41 |
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Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 00:06
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,265 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
From Norh Street I normally turn right onto he A12 Eastern Avenue going East. Sometimes I go West if I'm going to London. So your use of the bus lane could be construed to be queue jumping. As much as signage is poor an adjudicator will look at the time of day and how you could possibly have failed to notice traffic queuing at that busy spot while you sailed up the left? It potentially weakens your argument against multiple PCNs, unless you can think of an explanation. - Do you understand the issues with PCN wording and the links PMB gave you? -------------------- |
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Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 00:23
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
I approach North Street from Cedar Road and naturally look right to check oncoming traffic to turn into the road going Northbound. I seem to have missed the sign on the left which I couldn't see as the car is facing the road at an angle away from the sign. OP. Here is exit from Cedar Road onto North Street. Turning left would be northbound. GSV Is the signage different from the picture? -------------------- |
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Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 01:06
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 86 Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Member No.: 94,234 |
I approach North Street from Cedar Road and naturally look right to check oncoming traffic to turn into the road going Northbound. I seem to have missed the sign on the left which I couldn't see as the car is facing the road at an angle away from the sign. OP. Here is exit from Cedar Road onto North Street. Turning left would be northbound. GSV Is the signage different from the picture? The signage is the same. However, a board has been added to show timings coming onto North Street from Cedar Road. I'll take pictures tomorrow and post here. |
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Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:01
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 86 Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Member No.: 94,234 |
From Norh Street I normally turn right onto he A12 Eastern Avenue going East. Sometimes I go West if I'm going to London. So your use of the bus lane could be construed to be queue jumping. As much as signage is poor an adjudicator will look at the time of day and how you could possibly have failed to notice traffic queuing at that busy spot while you sailed up the left? It potentially weakens your argument against multiple PCNs, unless you can think of an explanation. - Do you understand the issues with PCN wording and the links PMB gave you? I've been using this lane quite regularly, following other cars a lot of the time, falling into a 'follow the sheep' mentality. Also, it's very difficult to pull out into the road as it's very rare for anyone to give way (I can maybe post a video of my experience) as most drivers want to keep their position in the queue before letting anyone through. The only option most of the time is to pull out into a box junction often blocking any oncoming bus once the traffic has come to a halt (I was worried about getting a fine for this). It's easier just to go on the bus stop and merge in. It seems Havering Council have become more strict on this section of road since the beginning of 2017. Also, I always thought I was driving in a small section of bus lane before the bus stop since the red bus lane tarmac colour ends before Cedar Road. I don't fully understand the issues with PCN wording and how to apply it to my challenge. They have now added the correct sign according to the link PMB provided. This post has been edited by carlosescobar: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:18 |
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Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:09
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
OP. In your first post, you implied you didn't know there was a bus lane:
I seem to have missed the sign on the left which I couldn't see as the car is facing the road at an angle away from the sign. In your last post you seem well aware there was a bus lane: I've been using this lane quite regularly, following other cars a lot of the time, falling into a 'follow the sheep' mentality. Also, it's very difficult to pull out into the road as it's very rare for anyone to give way (I can maybe post a video of my experience) as most drivers want to keep their position in the queue before letting anyone through. The only option most of the time is to pull out into a box junction often blocking any oncoming bus once the traffic has come to a halt (I was worried about getting a fine for this). It's easier just to go on the bus stop and merge in. It seems Havering Council have become more strict on this section of road since the beginning of 2017. Also, I always thought I was driving in a small section of bus lane before the bus stop since the red bus lane tarmac colour ends before Cedar Road. Can only be one or the other... -------------------- |
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Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:11
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 86 Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Member No.: 94,234 |
I approach North Street from Cedar Road and naturally look right to check oncoming traffic to turn into the road going Northbound. I seem to have missed the sign on the left which I couldn't see as the car is facing the road at an angle away from the sign. OP. Here is exit from Cedar Road onto North Street. Turning left would be northbound. GSV Is the signage different from the picture? The signage is the same. However, a board has been added to show timings coming onto North Street from Cedar Road. I'll take pictures tomorrow and post here. Here is an image of the signage going towards the junction from Cedar Road that I believe has been added quite recently: To be honest I never really noticed it until I received the evidence for the PCN. Here is an image from Street view (August 2016) that shows the sign isn't there and the angle at which the junction is often approached: |
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Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:20
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
And as you exit Cedar Road and turn left into North Road, this is the view:
How did you miss the sign and road markings? -------------------- |
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Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:34
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,265 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
How did you miss the sign and road markings? How did the Council manage to write so much total bollo x on the EN ? -------------------- |
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Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:38
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 13,735 Joined: 22 Oct 2007 Member No.: 14,720 |
How did you miss the sign and road markings? How did the Council manage to write so much total bollo x on the EN ? I'm not saying they didn't. And much better to focus on proper arguments that will win. -------------------- |
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Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:40
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 86 Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Member No.: 94,234 |
And as you exit Cedar Road and turn left into North Road, this is the view: How did you miss the sign and road markings? This is the view from the passenger window I guess. However, I'm looking right to check whether I can pull out into the road. Tomorrow I'll make a point to look left to check what I can see from the driver position. |
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Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 08:18
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Peter the signage is not as per guidance, so it can win. Do other factors come into play? yes, SC and as Neil points out gaining an advantage both weaken the argument.
Then you have the technical bits. Adjudicators are not high court judges, and some have been known to shy away from legal argument, so giving them something re the contravention they can find on gives them an easy life. Always best if possible -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 2 Nov 2017 - 00:02
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 86 Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Member No.: 94,234 |
And as you exit Cedar Road and turn left into North Road, this is the view: How did you miss the sign and road markings? This is the view from the passenger window I guess. However, I'm looking right to check whether I can pull out into the road. Tomorrow I'll make a point to look left to check what I can see from the driver position. I glanced left today and couldn't see the bus lane sign or the bus lane wording on the road from the driving position. Peter the signage is not as per guidance, so it can win. Do other factors come into play? yes, SC and as Neil points out gaining an advantage both weaken the argument. Then you have the technical bits. Adjudicators are not high court judges, and some have been known to shy away from legal argument, so giving them something re the contravention they can find on gives them an easy life. Always best if possible Is the sign in the following image as per guidance? Also any advice on how I should word my challenge? |
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Thu, 2 Nov 2017 - 01:26
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 29,265 Joined: 16 Jan 2008 Member No.: 16,671 |
I don't do signs much but noticed it's missing the words 'bus lane'.
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Thu, 2 Nov 2017 - 08:59
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I don't do signs much but noticed it's missing the words 'bus lane'. The correct sign 962 but it does require the words bus lane. and it's positioning is a bit suspect -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Fri, 3 Nov 2017 - 12:19
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 86 Joined: 27 Sep 2017 Member No.: 94,234 |
And as you exit Cedar Road and turn left into North Road, this is the view: How did you miss the sign and road markings? This is the view from the passenger window I guess. However, I'm looking right to check whether I can pull out into the road. Tomorrow I'll make a point to look left to check what I can see from the driver position. The is a picture of the actual view when I get to the junction. All I can see is the sign showing all lanes I can go with the arrows and the bus stop. |
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