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Bus Lane PCN Enforcement Notice, North Street, Romford
carlosescobar
post Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 12:54
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This case is related to the following Linked thread

Attached is an image of the violation. which has taken place on North Street in Romford near my work.
[attachment=51474:hav_0.jpg]

I approach North Street from Cedar Road and naturally look right to check oncoming traffic to turn into the road going Northbound. I seem to have missed the sign on the left which I couldn't see as the car is facing the road at an angle away from the sign.

[attachment=51475:hav_2.jpg] [attachment=51476:hav_3.jpg] [attachment=51477:hav_4.jpg] [attachment=51478:hav_5.jpg]

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated as it will help me with a bigger problem of multiple Enforcement Notices for the same offence.
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post Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 12:54
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 23:44
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Two possible arguments. The signage is inadequate. The road layout you mention, if guidance is followed should have sign 962 on cedar rd. and the sign 959 on north st is very high out of a drivers eyeline
15.16 page 133

http://tsrgd.co.uk/pdf/tsm/tsm-chapter-03.pdf

The EN makes repeated reference to notice to owner and gives grounds for representation and appeal that would have no part in bus lane enforcement

look at the differences in the regulation against what the EN tells you

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/1996/9/schedule/1/enacted


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Mad Mick V
post Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 07:43
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Well, if the Notice refers to the TMA 2004 and procedural impropriety take them up on their kind offer.

The Enforcement Notice is a nullity because it's a hybrid --we even have a 56 day rule which has never related to the legislation noted at the top of the document.

Shambles!!!

Mick
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Neil B
post Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 08:54
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 00:44) *
should have sign 962 on cedar rd.

A point slightly enhanced by there being just that on the previous side road, Brooklands approach.

Quick question for OP; where do you go from North St.?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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carlosescobar
post Mon, 30 Oct 2017 - 22:39
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 08:54) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 25 Oct 2017 - 00:44) *
should have sign 962 on cedar rd.

A point slightly enhanced by there being just that on the previous side road, Brooklands approach.

Quick question for OP; where do you go from North St.?

From Norh Street I normally turn right onto the A12 Eastern Avenue going East. Sometimes I go West if I'm going to London.

This post has been edited by carlosescobar: Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 00:41
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Neil B
post Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 00:06
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QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Mon, 30 Oct 2017 - 23:39) *
From Norh Street I normally turn right onto he A12 Eastern Avenue going East. Sometimes I go West if I'm going to London.

So your use of the bus lane could be construed to be queue jumping.
As much as signage is poor an adjudicator will look at the time of day and
how you could possibly have failed to notice traffic queuing at that busy spot
while you sailed up the left?
It potentially weakens your argument against multiple PCNs, unless you can
think of an explanation.

-

Do you understand the issues with PCN wording and the links PMB gave you?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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peterguk
post Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 00:23
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QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 12:54) *
I approach North Street from Cedar Road and naturally look right to check oncoming traffic to turn into the road going Northbound. I seem to have missed the sign on the left which I couldn't see as the car is facing the road at an angle away from the sign.


OP. Here is exit from Cedar Road onto North Street. Turning left would be northbound.

GSV

Is the signage different from the picture?


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carlosescobar
post Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 01:06
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 00:23) *
QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 12:54) *
I approach North Street from Cedar Road and naturally look right to check oncoming traffic to turn into the road going Northbound. I seem to have missed the sign on the left which I couldn't see as the car is facing the road at an angle away from the sign.


OP. Here is exit from Cedar Road onto North Street. Turning left would be northbound.

GSV

Is the signage different from the picture?

The signage is the same. However, a board has been added to show timings coming onto North Street from Cedar Road. I'll take pictures tomorrow and post here.
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carlosescobar
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:01
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 00:06) *
QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Mon, 30 Oct 2017 - 23:39) *
From Norh Street I normally turn right onto he A12 Eastern Avenue going East. Sometimes I go West if I'm going to London.

So your use of the bus lane could be construed to be queue jumping.
As much as signage is poor an adjudicator will look at the time of day and
how you could possibly have failed to notice traffic queuing at that busy spot
while you sailed up the left?
It potentially weakens your argument against multiple PCNs, unless you can
think of an explanation.

-

Do you understand the issues with PCN wording and the links PMB gave you?

I've been using this lane quite regularly, following other cars a lot of the time, falling into a 'follow the sheep' mentality.

Also, it's very difficult to pull out into the road as it's very rare for anyone to give way (I can maybe post a video of my experience) as most drivers want to keep their position in the queue before letting anyone through. The only option most of the time is to pull out into a box junction often blocking any oncoming bus once the traffic has come to a halt (I was worried about getting a fine for this). It's easier just to go on the bus stop and merge in.

It seems Havering Council have become more strict on this section of road since the beginning of 2017. Also, I always thought I was driving in a small section of bus lane before the bus stop since the red bus lane tarmac colour ends before Cedar Road.



I don't fully understand the issues with PCN wording and how to apply it to my challenge. They have now added the correct sign according to the link PMB provided.

This post has been edited by carlosescobar: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:18
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peterguk
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:09
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OP. In your first post, you implied you didn't know there was a bus lane:

QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 12:54) *
I seem to have missed the sign on the left which I couldn't see as the car is facing the road at an angle away from the sign.


In your last post you seem well aware there was a bus lane:

QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:01) *
I've been using this lane quite regularly, following other cars a lot of the time, falling into a 'follow the sheep' mentality.

Also, it's very difficult to pull out into the road as it's very rare for anyone to give way (I can maybe post a video of my experience) as most drivers want to keep their position in the queue before letting anyone through. The only option most of the time is to pull out into a box junction often blocking any oncoming bus once the traffic has come to a halt (I was worried about getting a fine for this). It's easier just to go on the bus stop and merge in.

It seems Havering Council have become more strict on this section of road since the beginning of 2017. Also, I always thought I was driving in a small section of bus lane before the bus stop since the red bus lane tarmac colour ends before Cedar Road.


Can only be one or the other...


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carlosescobar
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:11
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QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 01:06) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 31 Oct 2017 - 00:23) *
QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Tue, 24 Oct 2017 - 12:54) *
I approach North Street from Cedar Road and naturally look right to check oncoming traffic to turn into the road going Northbound. I seem to have missed the sign on the left which I couldn't see as the car is facing the road at an angle away from the sign.


OP. Here is exit from Cedar Road onto North Street. Turning left would be northbound.

GSV

Is the signage different from the picture?

The signage is the same. However, a board has been added to show timings coming onto North Street from Cedar Road. I'll take pictures tomorrow and post here.

Here is an image of the signage going towards the junction from Cedar Road that I believe has been added quite recently:



To be honest I never really noticed it until I received the evidence for the PCN. Here is an image from Street view (August 2016) that shows the sign isn't there and the angle at which the junction is often approached:

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peterguk
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:20
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And as you exit Cedar Road and turn left into North Road, this is the view:




How did you miss the sign and road markings?


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Neil B
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:34
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 01:20) *
How did you miss the sign and road markings?

How did the Council manage to write so much total bollo x on the EN ?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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peterguk
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:38
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:34) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 01:20) *
How did you miss the sign and road markings?

How did the Council manage to write so much total bollo x on the EN ?


I'm not saying they didn't. And much better to focus on proper arguments that will win.


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carlosescobar
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:40
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:20) *
And as you exit Cedar Road and turn left into North Road, this is the view:




How did you miss the sign and road markings?

This is the view from the passenger window I guess. However, I'm looking right to check whether I can pull out into the road. Tomorrow I'll make a point to look left to check what I can see from the driver position.
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 08:18
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Peter the signage is not as per guidance, so it can win. Do other factors come into play? yes, SC and as Neil points out gaining an advantage both weaken the argument.
Then you have the technical bits. Adjudicators are not high court judges, and some have been known to shy away from legal argument, so giving them something re the contravention
they can find on gives them an easy life. Always best if possible


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carlosescobar
post Thu, 2 Nov 2017 - 00:02
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QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:40) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:20) *
And as you exit Cedar Road and turn left into North Road, this is the view:




How did you miss the sign and road markings?

This is the view from the passenger window I guess. However, I'm looking right to check whether I can pull out into the road. Tomorrow I'll make a point to look left to check what I can see from the driver position.

I glanced left today and couldn't see the bus lane sign or the bus lane wording on the road from the driving position.

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 08:18) *
Peter the signage is not as per guidance, so it can win. Do other factors come into play? yes, SC and as Neil points out gaining an advantage both weaken the argument.
Then you have the technical bits. Adjudicators are not high court judges, and some have been known to shy away from legal argument, so giving them something re the contravention
they can find on gives them an easy life. Always best if possible

Is the sign in the following image as per guidance?



Also any advice on how I should word my challenge?
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Neil B
post Thu, 2 Nov 2017 - 01:26
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I don't do signs much but noticed it's missing the words 'bus lane'.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 2 Nov 2017 - 08:59
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Thu, 2 Nov 2017 - 01:26) *
I don't do signs much but noticed it's missing the words 'bus lane'.


The correct sign 962 but it does require the words bus lane. and it's positioning is a bit suspect


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carlosescobar
post Fri, 3 Nov 2017 - 12:19
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QUOTE (carlosescobar @ Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:40) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Wed, 1 Nov 2017 - 00:20) *
And as you exit Cedar Road and turn left into North Road, this is the view:




How did you miss the sign and road markings?

This is the view from the passenger window I guess. However, I'm looking right to check whether I can pull out into the road. Tomorrow I'll make a point to look left to check what I can see from the driver position.

The is a picture of the actual view when I get to the junction.



All I can see is the sign showing all lanes I can go with the arrows and the bus stop.
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