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Utterly shicked at court!
ck1978
post Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 01:59
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stopped for my first ever driving offence in MArch of this year, speeding on a motorway by an unmarked car.

signed my nip and accepted the 3 points and £60 fine, however was not able to produce my counterpart licence within 7 days as I had mislaid it.

I notified the police station of the problem on day 6 and on day 7 they sent the NIP away for processing through the courts. I was told I would recieve a summons in a couple of weeks.

Murphy's law strikes and I find my counterpart licence on day 8, took it to the police station who advise that it is too late and I must wait for the summons, I call the central ticket office who advise the same.

6 Months go by and on 06/10/2009 the summons arrives dated 30/09/2009, court date 13/10/2009.

I was not able to attend court as i could not get the time off work at such short notice, i pleaded guilty by post and advised the court of all of the above.

The NET result? 5 points and a £400 fine!

Not happy to say the least! I rand the central ticket office and spoke to a really helpful officer who when told of the situation said 'i'm shocked that it is very severe!' he told me I can appeal and I intend to!

I feel totally agrieved that the fine has been ramped up by 800% and I have got an extra 2 points for essentially being a bit disorganised!

Couple of questions.....

1) how can the penalty and fine be increased when I have been tried and convicted when I signed the NIP? Double jeapordy?

2) has anyone else had this, if so how did the appeal go.

I drive 25k miles per year and have done for 10 years, this is my 1st offence of any kind and I am amazed at how draconian the system has been.

This post has been edited by ck1978: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 03:14
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post Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 01:59
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jobo
post Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 02:19
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the fine isnt that high

its income based so the more you earn the more you pay

the points sound high im guessing you were well into the 90s

you can appeal sentence but it really depends on if the penalty they have given you is outside their sentencing guidelines

if not , youve not much chance to be honest

how fast were you going ?????????



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jobo

anyone but Murray, Wish granted for another year,
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ford poplar
post Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 03:17
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You signed to acknowledge receipt of the CoFP (operative word conditional) not the penalty offered
You failed to comply with T&Cs
I guess the fine included court costs and victim support levy
Unless the penalty imposed exceeds sentencing guidelines. like an MP's expenses reclaim you will have to 'suck it up'
I am not unsympathetic but would you accept a speeding, unlicensed motorist should only get £60 and 3 points? or that a motorist with a reasonable defence should meekly accept the fixed penalty without a day in Court Thats why there is a time limit on CoFPs IMO
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andy_foster
post Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 11:03
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@ford_popular - when did the OP get a COFP (operative word "conditional")?


@ck1978,

If the sentence had been outside the guidelines or greater than the maximum permitted by statute, you would be able to appeal to the High Court, but that does not appear to be the case.

You can however appeal to the Crown Court against the sentence. I have no idea whether or not you would be successful.


Generally, when a case gets to court and the accused is convicted, the court will sentence according to its guidelines (within the statutory limits). A court might decide that where an fixed penalty has been 'offered' to the accused, the occifer had decided that that was the appropriate punishment, and apply a similar sentence, but there is no requirement to do so.


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Steve_Williams
post Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 12:37
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Court costs on appeal will vary from one CPS area to another. On an appeal against sentence the court costs would be around £500. The fine would remain about the same, it should be about a weeks wages so it's just a question of the points. The best case scenario is a reduction to 3 points so saving 2 points. I would not advise to appeal this, the points are within the guideline, a little harsh maybe but not way off. Bear in mind the judge will sit with 2 magistrates from the sentencing court area it is at bet 50/50 that he would reduce the points.

You have to weigh up whether it's worth the risk. On one hand there is the risk of an additional £500 court costs plus legal fees (probably around £200 for paperwork, if you have a barrister or solicitor represent you at court say another £250)on the other hand get 2 points at best knocked off. Even if you succeed you may still have the legal costs, although the appeal paperwork is easy.

If you want to appeal this is the format of the appeal notice -

IN THE CROWN COURT AT xxxxxxxxx
ON APPEAL FROM THE xxxxxxxxxx MAGISTRATES' COURT




REGINA
v.

ck1978 (obvously you put your real name in here ;-))




NOTICE OF APPEAL
AGAINST SENTENCE

1.The appellant appeared before xxxxxxxxxx Magistrates' Court on xxth xxxx 2009.

2. He was charged with speeding. It was alleged that he was travelling at xmph within a 70mph speed limit

3. Following a guilty plea by post the court imposed 5 points together with a fine of £400 and costs and surcharge of £XXX.

4.The appellant contends that the sentence was unduly harsh taking into account the circumstances of the offence. The appellant had been offered a fixed penalty of 3 points and a £60 fine but unfortunately he did not reply in time.

5.Further and better particulars will be lodged prior to the hearing.


Signed ...................................................... 17th August 2009
Appellant



That should do it, you then need to send it to the Mags court and the CPS, some areas like you to send it to the police too.

You need to do this within 21 days of the hearing, if you are out of time you will need to ask for leave to appeal out of time.

So that's £200 saved for you ;-)

If you decide to appeal good luck

Steve





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CountryCousin
post Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 13:02
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And if a motorist wins an appeal on the sentence imposed by the magistrates court in the Crown Court are they still liable to pay the court costs or this the case only if the sentence is not revised in their favour as the motorist? Also I presume the CPS are allowed to make out a case against your appeal of the sentence and you would also be liable for their costs if not successful? But are you also allowed to reclaim your own legal costs in bringing the appeal if the sentence is revised in your favour as the applicant?

Steve perhaps you had better tell us your address and phone number as I am blowed if I can find any other solicitors or barristers who take on motoring cases who seem to work at the very low hourly rates that you seem to suggest are generally available to the public.

This post has been edited by CountryCousin: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 13:05
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Steve_Williams
post Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 13:22
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Hi Countrycousin,

If you win the appeal then you only have to pay the mags court costs which should be about £45 on a guilty plea plus of course the £15 'victim' surcharge that all motorists have to pay for the benefit of the victims..... strange burglars never pay this because they dont get a fine!!!

The court costs are effectively the CPS costs, The CPS don't argue against the appeal against sentence they basically just put the case forward. They don't really have any input into sentencing.

As for your legal costs on appeal, in theory you can recover them but there is no guarantee that the court will make that order, especially in this case they may say the poster brought it upon himself by not returning the CoFP in time.

As for the costs, there is a mystique about solicitors costs, in terms of hourly rates mine aren't low - about £200 an hour but I always work on a fixed fee and with a lot of experience you can do things quicker. I don't have a load of overheads, there is just me so I can be cheaper but I think it is easy to hide behind the 'complexitys' of the law and claim say £200 for drafting a notice of appeal. The reality is that I cut and pasted an old one, changed the name and........ "That will be £200 sir". That's why I wouldn't charge that sort of price for drafting an appeal because truth is it takes me 15 mins. If I was charging for that I would have given a free interview over the phone and charged £50 for doing the appeal. I am also a motorist with points on my licence so I am always happy to help others - I do advertise on here but if anyone wants any quick advice my mobile is 07799 383239 - www.motoringlawyersonline.com

This post has been edited by Steve_Williams: Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 13:23
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ck1978
post Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 22:48
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steve, thanks for the reply

i am getting married n the morning and will be off on honeymoon on sunday so intend to appeal on my return

ill keep you posted
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CountryCousin
post Sat, 17 Oct 2009 - 01:38
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QUOTE (ck1978 @ Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 23:48) *
steve, thanks for the reply

i am getting married n the morning and will be off on honeymoon on sunday so intend to appeal on my return

ill keep you posted


How long is your honeymoon as you only have 21 days to lodge an appeal from the date of the verdict in the magistrates court.

I hope you have a great wedding day.

QUOTE (Steve_Williams @ Fri, 16 Oct 2009 - 14:22) *
As for the costs, there is a mystique about solicitors costs, in terms of hourly rates mine aren't low - about £200 an hour but I always work on a fixed fee and with a lot of experience you can do things quicker. I don't have a load of overheads, there is just me so I can be cheaper but I think it is easy to hide behind the 'complexitys' of the law and claim say £200 for drafting a notice of appeal. The reality is that I cut and pasted an old one, changed the name and........ "That will be £200 sir". That's why I wouldn't charge that sort of price for drafting an appeal because truth is it takes me 15 mins. If I was charging for that I would have given a free interview over the phone and charged £50 for doing the appeal. I am also a motorist with points on my licence so I am always happy to help others - I do advertise on here but if anyone wants any quick advice my mobile is 07799 383239 - www.motoringlawyersonline.com


Perhaps I have spent too much time talking to Blake Lapthorn then.

Their motoring law partner charges £245 per hour + VAT and seemed to think he might need to charge me for up to 3 hours of his time just to give me a view on whether I had a chance of applying for a mistrial on my part heard not guilty plea magistrates court case. I could only begin to guess at how much the bill would have been by the time he had managed to achieve a mistrial, let alone by the end of the re-run trial. All of which explains why I didn't bother and ended up doing the best I could myself as even the total guilty verdict costs and fine of £365 were little more than one hour of the time of a Blake Lapthorn partner's time +VAT..........

This post has been edited by CountryCousin: Sat, 17 Oct 2009 - 01:40
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