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PACE Letter - use in Scotland
Rocket Ron
post Wed, 16 Jun 2004 - 23:45
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Received NIP this morning from Dumfries and Galloway Scamership alleging 94 mph on A74(M) last saturday.

Saw van over 1 mile away on overbridge and slowed to 75 but I presume some kind of zoom lens is in use. Have sent for videographic evidence and see waht comes of that, however I wish to use the PACE letter admitting that I was the driver but ruling out use of admission in court becuase no warning under PACE has been given.

What is the equivalent legislation in Scotland to PACE and is there any tweaking of the letter content necessary over the border.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the flag of St George on my car may have had something to do with attracting attention of the camera operator.
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post Wed, 16 Jun 2004 - 23:45
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jeffreyarcher
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 - 00:16
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QUOTE (rashworth)
Saw van over 1 mile away


icon_eek.gif

QUOTE (rashworth)
<...> I presume some kind of zoom lens is in use. Have sent for videographic evidence and see what comes of that,

It appears from another current D&G A74(M) case, that they use Kustom pro-laser IIs.

QUOTE (rashworth)
however I wish to use the PACE letter admitting that I was the driver but ruling out use of admission in court becuase no warning under PACE has been given.
What is the equivalent legislation in Scotland to PACE and is there any tweaking of the letter content necessary over the border.

PACE does not apply in Scotland (except in a few minor areas which have nothing to do with cautions or confessions). Neither is there any directly equivalent legislation.
AFAIK, the rules for confessions are contained in case law and in the common law. Unfortunately, I don't know what they are.
There are also exceptions to the requirement for cautions for statutorily required information; again, I don't know what they are.

QUOTE (rashworth)
I have a sneaking suspicion that the flag of St George on my car may have had something to do with attracting attention of the camera operator.

I doubt it, money's money.
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Mika
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 - 06:42
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Hi Rashworth,

PACE may not apply in Scotland, but the ECHR does.

Have you considered sending them one of these instead? icon_wink.gif


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DW190
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 - 07:29
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PACE may not apply in Scotland, but the rules in relation to the admissibility of evidence without first being cautioned do.


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jeffreyarcher
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 - 07:46
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QUOTE (DW190)
PACE may not apply in Scotland, but the rules in relation to the admissibility of evidence without first being cautioned do.

What rules?
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DW190
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 - 08:00
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QUOTE (jeffreyarcher)
QUOTE (DW190)
PACE may not apply in Scotland, but the rules in relation to the admissibility of evidence without first being cautioned do.

What rules?


Brown v Stott for one

Have a look at this thread


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firefly
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 - 08:07
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QUOTE (DW190)
QUOTE (jeffreyarcher)
QUOTE (DW190)
PACE may not apply in Scotland, but the rules in relation to the admissibility of evidence without first being cautioned do.

What rules?


Brown v Stott for one

Have a look at this thread


Que? You have lost me! What has Stott v Brown got to do with rules in relation to admissability of evidence in relation to a caution?


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Mika
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 - 08:25
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Chaps,

I don’t know exactly what the “rules” are either. However, I know for certain that the police cannot rely on anything that is said, by the defendant, unless they were under ‘caution’.

That is why the PACE letter could be checkmate: you have provided the information but it can’t be used in evidence in court proceedings, because you were not cautioned before that information was provided.

Therefore, something as simple as the following may suffice in Scotland:

It may be advisable to write on the original NIP “Please see the attached letter”, attach it to the following statement and return them via Special Delivery.

WITNESS STATEMENT

Date:
Their Ref: NIP reference number
Vehicle registration number

Dear Chief Constable,

Further to the above Notice of Intended Prosecution: I confirm that the following individual was driving my vehicle at the time of the alleged motoring offence:

ALL OF THE DETAILS REQUIRED ON THE NIP – name, address, date of birth, driver number etc. etc.

As I have not received a caution, it is my understanding that, and this statement and the information in it is submitted subject to the condition that, it may not and will not "be given in evidence to a court in a prosecution".

Yours sincerely,

Signature of driver

Name of Driver


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Rocket Ron
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 - 13:47
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Many thanks, Mika. I am inclined to use your latter suggested letter and park the EHRA letter for another day.

Incidently, I used the PACE letter in Manchester and I have received a summons for not providing info under Section 172. Pleaded not guilty and have spoken to the Ticket Office Manager who admits that they have misplaced my PACE letter. Fortunately I sent the PACE letter special delivery, three weeks before the summons was issued, immediately after Idris's unsigned decision in March. They are reviewing the position in the light of the faxed copy of my PACE letter that I have sent them.

Any thoughts on likely outcome and could the ERHA letter be useful in this case? icon_question.gif
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firefly
post Thu, 17 Jun 2004 - 14:08
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QUOTE (rashworth)
Incidently, I used the PACE letter in Manchester and I have received a summons for not providing info under Section 172. Pleaded not guilty and have spoken to the Ticket Office Manager who admits that they have misplaced my PACE letter. Fortunately I sent the PACE letter special delivery, three weeks before the summons was issued, immediately after Idris's unsigned decision in March. They are reviewing the position in the light of the faxed copy of my PACE letter that I have sent them.

Most puzzling. I was under the impression that once the police send the papers to the CPS, their involvement effectively ends, save for when (if) they are requested as witnesses. Your post indicates that you have already been summonsed, yet the ticket office manager says they are reviewing the position. Do you mean the CPS are reviewing the position?


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Phil
post Fri, 18 Jun 2004 - 17:04
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Hi Rashworth,

in the same boat, my Trial is on 7th July.
I have put details on post: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=930,
if you want to check details... it a long post...

Phil
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Rocket Ron
post Sun, 20 Jun 2004 - 14:05
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Dear FF,

Yes, the Ticket Office Manager said she would send the full documentation including my PACE letter to the DPP (if and when they find the letter signed for at the point of delivery by the Royal Mail but now lost)
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Rocket Ron
post Wed, 23 Jun 2004 - 09:29
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Sorry, I meant CPS. My conversation with the Ticket Office Manager was about three weeks ago, since when I have heard nothing. Is studied inaction the order of the day?
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