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court apperance but no previous letters recieved, what to do
looneygooner
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 17:05
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Hi Everyone,
I have just received a court summons over a red light violation, in the summons there are two previous letters over the red light violation, with a middle name which is not my own, completely different in the previous two letters , now I have issues with my address as there is a similar address three miles away
which results in letters and packages not for me being delivered, I have time and time again explained to the Post Office about the problem, to no avail. The first traffic offence letter was sent out last October, but I did not get, the second one sent out last November I did not get. I work for a company driving, so I knew nothing about this otherwise I would have contacted

the Traffic division to find out why I had received no letter for the traffic offence, for no fault of my own I face the prospect of pleading guilty and getting a big fine with court costs or going to court to explain that the first I knew about this offence was the court summons

the irony is, in the court summons, the
wrong middle name is not stated in my name and address, I hope I am making sense, as it is my correct name the letter got here. What can I do, do I have a leg to stand on

Or do I need to grovel to the court and pray that they accept my explanation, the other offence that is included is the failure to response to the letters sent out previously of which I did not get
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post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 17:05
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The Rookie
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 17:14
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Was this a company vehicle or your own?


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looneygooner
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 17:18
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Company vehicle, so all they do is check to see who was driving the vehicle and send it to the Police, it's a big company and the letter would have gone to Southampton and I work and live in London
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The Rookie
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 17:19
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So it’s likely the company provided the wrong name, it doesn’t help you anyway.

You will have to attend court (plead not guilty to both offences initially) and plea bargain to just the red light offence (if you think you did it).


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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looneygooner
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 17:28
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the traffic lights where the offence happened, You have to slow right down to turn left, as It is a 26t lorry I have to go as slow as possible and it looks like I made the wrong call as I slowed right down to turn left and from the pictures it looks like my lorry is going through the red light, but I have made that turning many times before and never an issue

Also it couldn't have been my company who made the error in my name as the middle name listed in the copies of the first two letters is the company's name so I can not see how they would have done that, it could have only come from the Traffic Police

One more thing looking at the photo, when the light is red I have at least a third of my lorry past the lights, but they state my lorry went through from the front when Red

This post has been edited by looneygooner: Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 17:48
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BaggieBoy
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 17:49
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QUOTE (looneygooner @ Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 18:28) *
Also it couldn't have been my company who made the error in my name as the middle name listed in the copies of the first two letters is the company's name so I can not see how they would have done that, it could have only come from the Traffic Police

The police would have been given your (incorrect) name by someone, most likely a leasing or finance company. The police would have no idea who was driving and would have sent the NIP to the Registered Keeper.
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looneygooner
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 18:15
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Any traffic violation offence that occurs a letter is sent to the company asking who the driver is, then they would have checked the vehicle to see who drives that lorry and what branch they work from, and for them to put the company name as my middle name when their records would show my full name would be impossible, as for finance or leasing I can not see that happening, I understand what you are saying, but I am wondering if the Traffic department themselves got it wrong and could that be a loop hole, I know it sounds desperate, but I did not receive the first two caution letters, as I would have not let this get this far. My company has it's own transport section for all things connected with vehicles, the company name would have been headed paper with the company name at the top
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KH_
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 19:06
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We seem to be missing the fact that there is a delivery issue in the OP.
Mail received for an address 3 miles away. It's not inconceivable that the delivery problems also works in reverse.

Is that an angle that could be investigated for what appears to be a s172 offence?
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looneygooner
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 19:58
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it has been an issue for years where we receive parcels and letters for the same address, but different postcode, and I presume the same happens with our letters, I have told the postman and the post office numerous times but no one listens, this is why I feel so angry that I didn't receive the first two letters because I would have acted on the first
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Logician
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 21:35
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QUOTE (looneygooner @ Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 17:28) *
the traffic lights where the offence happened, You have to slow right down to turn left, as It is a 26t lorry I have to go as slow as possible and it looks like I made the wrong call as I slowed right down to turn left and from the pictures it looks like my lorry is going through the red light, but I have made that turning many times before and never an issue Also it couldn't have been my company who made the error in my name as the middle name listed in the copies of the first two letters is the company's name so I can not see how they would have done that, it could have only come from the Traffic Police One more thing looking at the photo, when the light is red I have at least a third of my lorry past the lights, but they state my lorry went through from the front when Red


The offence occurs when any part of the vehicle passes the stop line when the lights are red. This is clearly a problem when driving a long vehicle. It may be that when looking at the photograph of an offence the office sometimes make allowance for that, but on this occasion did not. You could plan your route to avoid that turn or deliberately wait for the red, then take the junction as soon as the green appears.



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TonyS
post Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 08:35
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What's the relevance of the incorrect middle name? Presumably in itself that wouldn't cause the correspondence not be be received, unless it was returned or binned unopened because of the error.
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looneygooner
post Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 09:26
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If I didn't received it, it meant the chance was it went to the other address, I have no way of knowing whether they returned it stating not known at address or they binned it, I do not know the occupants because it is a rent address and different people have lived there
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Kickaha
post Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 10:15
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Do you have any proof of the delivery problems? (letter or complaint to royal mail etc.)
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looneygooner
post Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 14:31
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This has been a problem for at least fifteen years, the address and postcode for both addresses are identical apart from one number and one letter in the postcode, I have gone down to the sorting office and I have phoned numerous times, letters were sent in the beginning, but I have no copies and whether the Post Office will still have any correspondence from all that time ago, but if you were to look at both addresses you can see how it can happen. Obviously I can not show you the addresses as it would show where I live and I'm sure the terms will not allow if for obvious reasons



Is that an angle that could be investigated for what appears to be a s172 offence?, from a previous post could this add to my defence that my company have given the wrong middle name to the traffic Police which could have prevented me from receiving the first two letters
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andy_foster
post Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 15:30
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When a notice such as a NIP or s. 172 requirement is properly addressed and sent by first class pre-paid post, it is deemed in law to have been served 2 working days after it is posted, unless the contrary is proven. Evidence from the post office of prior complaints about an ongoing issue would substantially strengthen such a defence. However, if you can't be bothered to chase up the post office to try to obtain something that could be useful in defending your case, preferring to shrug your shoulders and decide that it's futile, then I'm struggling to see how you can realistically expect people to give up their free time to help you in your quest for futility.

Excuse me if I'm being a bit thick here, but can you explain how the wrong middle name being printed on the letter would have prevented it from being physically delivered correctly?
I can see a potential argument that the notice has not been correctly addressed to you, as a matter of law, but I am somewhat doubtful that you would get anywhere with that.


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Some people think that I make them feel stupid. To be fair, they deserve most of the credit.
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looneygooner
post Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 15:51
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it's strange that the first two letters with the wrong middle name don't arrive, but the court summons without the wrong middle name does, for me that is not a coincidence, as for the Post office, it is not a case of being not bothered, it is a case of so many times phoning the sorting office, and going down to the sorting office with parcels for not for me and telling them time and time again to double check the postcode and names as I have lived here for a long time, that is why when I ordered anything on line I stipulate to make sure that they double checked the address and postcode. I even once had a policeman arrived at my flat to tell me my nine year old son had an accident, when I told him my son was thirty, he had to go onto his radio to double check, so trust me it is a big problem. I put the question out on the forum for any assistance, I don't expect people to give up their free time to help. It was a question. And If I did ignore the first two letters with the consequences being summon to court with the potential of a huge fine and more points with court costs, so maybe it's me that's thick
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Irksome
post Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 16:48
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Does the court summons list both Fail to Provide and the red light offence?


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PePiPoo will likely close in October due to issues beyond the control of any contributor to this forum.

You are encouraged to seek advice at https://www.ftla.uk/speeding-and-other-criminal-offences/ where the vast majority of the experts here have moved over to already.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 19 Apr 2019 - 16:50
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For me it’s a complete coincidence, after all you clearly get some of your mail.

Think logically after removing the tin foil hat and you’ll see the truth of it.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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looneygooner
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 07:24
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yes the court summons does list both, and the second inane comment, obviously you have never had this problem, so your pointless remark is quite pathetic
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Logician
post Sun, 21 Apr 2019 - 14:01
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Since both offences are listed you have the opportunity to do a deal, agree to plead guilty to the red light offence provided the s.172 offence is dropped. You will have to go to court to do that and speak to the prosecutor. That is a pain of course, but reducing the 6 points and heavy fine you get for a s.172 offence to 3 points and a smaller fine is worth it. Since you will be in court anyway, you can put forward some mitigation about the physical difficulty of ensuring that a long vehicle negotiating a tight corner is entirely past the stop line before the lights change.


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