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Multiple NIP's on the same Average Speed Cameras
Razzauk
post Thu, 28 Mar 2019 - 20:11
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Evening all.

I'm a relatively new driver.
I've had my license since August 2018.
I'm 20 years of age.

I have been driving up and down the A13 between Dagenham and the Orsett Cock for about 4 months now ever since I got my first car at the beginning of December.
I don't think I've changed my driving style or anything but this week I've had TWO Intention to Prosecute notifications from Essex Police on consecutive days for the same stretch of road at similar times. (21/03/2019 and 22/03/2019)
These are average speed cameras set at 50mph and they captured me travelling at 58mph and 59mph respectively.
The 10%+2 rule means that I was traveling 1/2mph more than I should be allowed.

Going that these two are consecutive dates... I'm really concerned that more might follow based on the fact I had no idea I was speeding on the first one let alone this one.
I actually went into my local Metropolitan Police station upon receipt of the first one and expressed my concerns and she said just fill the Section 172 form in and they will likely give me a speed awareness course as I'm in "Band A."
I tried to call the number at the bottom of the letter from Essex Police just now to enquire about any more that they might have that I haven't had in the post yet but they're open between 11AM and 2PM weekdays only.l and get some rock solid answers to what I'm asking you guys now.

So...

Given that there's now two of these things and potentially more that I don't know of, am I likely to be given the option to attend a speed awareness course still?
Or will they see that I've sped twice and deserve 3 or 6 points and my license taking away?
I work some really unsociable hours so this would be problematic if I lose my license...
Like I say, I do this 15 mile stretch of road twice a day so I'm not clueless about it being there.

Any pointers would be brilliant...
Needless to say I'm anxious and absolutely bricking it.... 😮

This post has been edited by Razzauk: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 - 20:14
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post Thu, 28 Mar 2019 - 20:11
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squaredeal
post Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 16:00
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Thu, 18 Apr 2019 - 12:05) *
That response appears to make the assumption that the OP is dealing with the first offence by means of course
Otherwise, why does it not mention a course for one of the subsequent offences as long as he meets the conditions ?

This probably wouldn't have succeeded but, if the OP hadn't sent his letter, is it possible that he would have received more than one course offer ?

If he took two courses, would it have been noticed before the deadline to prosecute ?

He would only get one course offer. The system used will know there is a current offer in the pipeline, and only if the course is rejected by accepting the FP or court option for the relevant offence and therefore 'freed up' will the course option be available again for another similar offence - but NOT for either of the other 2 offences that only have been allocated the FP or court option already.
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Razzauk
post Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 11:05
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So, it's not worth going the court route then...

Hardship with loss of job? I manage a rental portfolio of 60 residential properties for a living in our single branch family run estate agency and my car is my right hand.
I'll lose my job if I lose my license, even if this is only for a short period of time.
My employer can attest this to the relevant authorities if it needs to come up.
My employer isn't in the best of financial shape at present and they aren't subsidised by any governments or franchises as we are not franchised.
Whilst all of my colleagues drive, they are in separate departments and they would not be able to cover the void period due to being thinly spread already across the sales department which has already been eerily quiet because of Brexit and the inconsistency/fluctuation of prices.
In the world of estate agency if there's no completion/successful sale there's no fee earned and if you look in the news about the ban of estate agency fees etc you will easily see why we're already feeling the pinch.
Without a doubt, we would go down under if I was let go as their time would have to be spent covering the rental portfolio over this period (which is a very tedious and time-consuming job let me tell you) instead of selling properties like their time should be spent to keep us ticking over.

Is it worth one last punt with Essex Police to write another begging letter and try my luck, or is the court likely to hear me out on these grounds of exceptional hardship plus not being able to adjust my speeding with the short intervening periods of the offences?

Clutching at straws as ever...
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Jlc
post Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 11:24
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(Exceptional) Hardship only applies to totting bans. As already noted revocation is an administrative process by the DVLA.

A court would have to endorse for each offence. There doesn’t appear to be any grounds not to.

You can try the begging letter with the above info...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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NewJudge
post Sat, 27 Apr 2019 - 14:01
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You've already had a response from the police. They are most unlikely to change their minds and your circumstances are not a matter for them when they decide to prosecute, they are a matter for consideration by the courts

If you accept the Fixed Penalties your licence will be revoked. If you take the matters to court they must be dealt with by way of three points as there are no "Special Reasons" not to do so meaning again your licence will be revoked.. You have one very slim hope of avoiding this. It is almost bound to fail but I’ll mention it just so as you are aware. You can ask the court to disqualify you for a short period (perhaps 7 to 14 days) for these offences instead of imposing points. It may seem perverse but revocation under the New Drivers’ legislation only takes place when six or more points are reached; it does not kick in when a driver is disqualified. In my opinion your request is bound to fall on deaf ears for two reasons: (1) the offences are not serious enough to normally warrant disqualification and (2) even if they were if a disqualification was ordered it would be specifically contrary to guidelines which Magistrates have. These say that where there is such a choice between points and disqualification (even if the offence(s) are serious enough for a ban to be considered) and the points would led to either revocation or “totting up” they should impose points.

The court may listen to you when you explain your circumstances but they will almost certainly not act upon your plea. As already noted, you do not have the right to formally make an "Exceptional Hardship" plea when it comes to revocation under the New Drivers' legislation. The court plays no part in revoking your licence (other than to inform the DVLA of the points they have imposed).

One thing you must be aware of is that if you do take the matters to court each will cost you a good bit more than £100. You will face a fine of half a week’s net income (reduced by a third for a guilty plea) but you will also pay a Victim Surcharge of at least 10% of the fine (Minimum £30) and £85 costs (though only one lot of costs will probably be requested to cover all the offences).

Some advice you may take on board for future reference. As I said earlier, when you begin driving again the points you have accumulated will remain on your licence. They are “active” for totting up purposes for three years from the dates of the offences. If you reach twelve in that time you will face a totting up ban and will have to make a formal “Exceptional Hardship” plea to avoid it. My view of your current circumstances as you describe them are that they will probably not be considered by a court to be exceptional by any means. It is the sort of hardship anybody who needs to drive for a living would suffer. Hardship visited on others usually carries more weight than that suffered by yourself but the court will probably assume that your employer managed perfectly well before August 2018 and will probably adapt to do without you should they have to let you go. Your suggestion that you did not have an opportunity to adjust your driving between offences is unlikely to get off the ground. It has nothing to with “hardship” and in any case all drivers should be aware of the prevailing limit and their responsibility to drive within it. This should be especially true of you who passed your test only six or seven months earlier.

Unfortunately the situation you find yourself in is precisely the circumstances the New Drivers’ legislation was designed to address and there is little room for manoeuvre to avoid the consequences.
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Razzauk
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 20:21
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Couldnt have been at a worse time...

Boss said wages are going in on 10/05/19. Brown trouser moment... Panic.com

Should I send this?

______________________________________________________________________________

To Whom it may Concern at the CREES Team,

I am writing this letter to explain why I have had to choose the court hearing option for the three below speeding offences.
I have misplaced some of the pages to some of the forms you asked me to fill in so I have written this letter instead if you can accept this or issue me with new ones to complete?

- L066/19/0021 - 58mph measured speed on 21/03/2019 in 50mph Average Speed Zone (A13 Wennington/Stifford Eastbound)
- L069/19/0035 - 59mph measured speed on 22/03/2019 in 50mph Average Speed Zone (A13 Wennington/Stifford Eastbound)
- L072/19/0020 – 58mph measured speed on 25/03/2019 in 50mph Average Speed Zone (A13 Wennington/Stifford Westbound)

Whilst I understand you feel that your letter in response to mine was firm but fair and you have guidelines you choose to follow; I still feel that the punishment for these series of unfortunate events should be considered together as one; rather than how you worded the NSAC, endorsement and then revocation of my license, and I know you have such discretion to make this decision before court stage.


I manage a rental portfolio of 60 residential properties for a living in our single branch, family run estate agency and my car is my right hand.
I'll lose my job if I lose my license, even if this is only for a short period of time.
My employer isn't in the best of financial shape at present and they aren't subsidised by any governments or franchises as we are not franchised.
I’ll touch on why this is important to note as you read on.

Whilst all of my colleagues drive, they are in separate departments and they would not be able to cover the void period due to being thinly spread already across the sales department which has already been eerily quiet because of Brexit and the inconsistency/fluctuation of prices.

In the world of estate agency if there's no completion/successful sale there's no fee earned and if you look in the news about the ban of estate agency fees etc you will easily see why we're already feeling the pinch.

If I was let go because of this, their time would have to be spent covering the rental portfolio over this period (which is a very tedious and time-consuming job let me tell you) or training someone up to speed to do it - instead of selling properties like their time should be spent to keep us ticking over, we would go down under.

I am on the minimum wage for my age. I do not smoke, I do not drink, never dabbled in any drugs. I’m a good kid. I get by. Never put a foot wrong.
In fact, the very same wages that pays my road tax, my insurance, my rent, everything I live on and now the monies you wish to fine me, my managing director has dropped a bombshell on me about it due to recent financial difficulties.
They told me on 29/04/2019 that they will not be paying my wages earned throughout April until 10/05/2019 due to cash-flow issues.
To give you an idea, the directors haven’t paid themselves for three months.
I am typically meant to be paid on the last working day of the month. Now, I’ve reluctantly had to come to terms with this, it is what it is.
If you need me to get them to contact you about this then I can arrange this.

I hope you don’t know it feels, but telling your creditors and parents, anyone you owe money to for that matter that you cant pay for anything for a while is frustrating.
Telling the police you can’t pay for a fine or afford to book a course feels like even more of a joke but like I said, there’s not much I can do; if he hasn’t got it then I can’t have it.
I held out for the 6 points and ÂŁ200 in fines. I have have had to delay my response to Essex Police until now as I fear the 28 days that I have been allocated to respond will elapse which pains me as I have been forced into a corner regarding the points and fine option so I have no option but to escalate this to court as I cannot physically pay for anything; which is something I did not wish or expect to happen, but for the avoidance of the disproportionate ÂŁ1000 fine and 12 points I am doing so.


Like I said in my previous letter, I’d appreciate at this point to take a look at this whole fiasco as a whole. I’m powerless, all I’m going to do in court is say what I’ve written in these letters and it’ll waste my time, the courts time and one of your officers time.
Please bear in mind I had no time to address the speeding as all three offences were committed by the time I was notified about the first one.
What I’m trying to say is that; I would not have opened a NIP up from you and then go and do the same thing again. Twice. Please understand this.

I’m still eager to meet a member of the CREEST personally to discuss this matter directly to perhaps a larger, increased fine, leveraging the discretion you have that may negate the necessity to put points on my driving license.
Please, put me on community service to avoid the loss of my license. Do it, please help me protect my future?

I am still very keen to speak to you and I have provided my contact information in the top right-hand side overleaf.
I'd prefer email as I don’t always have my mobile to hand.
Thank you so much for your time to read this letter and your consideration of therein.
I look forward to hearing from you soon. Please make the right decision.


Yours Faithfully,
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NewJudge
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 20:44
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Have you named yourself as the driver for all these offences? It seems from glancing through your draft letter that you have not.

This post has been edited by NewJudge: Mon, 6 May 2019 - 20:45
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southpaw82
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 20:48
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QUOTE (Razzauk @ Mon, 6 May 2019 - 21:21) *
To give you an idea, the directors haven’t paid themselves for three months.


What do your employers think about you divulging such sensitive information? Have you asked them if it’s ok?

QUOTE
I’m still eager to meet a member of the CREEST personally to discuss this matter directly


Don’t think they’ll do that.

QUOTE
to perhaps a larger, increased fine,


The police can’t increase the fine. A fixed penalty is exactly that.

QUOTE
Please, put me on community service to avoid the loss of my license.


The police have no power to do that.

NB: “licence”.

QUOTE
Please make the right decision.

Possibly not the best thing to say when you’re offering to buy your way out of trouble.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Razzauk
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 20:57
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Mon, 6 May 2019 - 21:44) *
Have you named yourself as the driver for all these offences? It seems from glancing through your draft letter that you have not.



Yes I have

Just clutching at straws Southpaw its the reason I post here for this advice and edits you would make yourself - you've all been massively helpful

This post has been edited by Razzauk: Mon, 6 May 2019 - 20:58
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NewJudge
post Mon, 6 May 2019 - 21:12
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If you have not done so you need to make sure you do name yourself within the time allowed. Failure to do so will see you convicted of a more serious offence and when you do begin driving again you will face horrendous insurance problems.

That said, your letter is largely pointless. As pointed out by sp, you are asking for things that simply cannot be done. The fixed penalties for these offences are precisely that - fixed. There is no option - even for a court - to impose "community service" for speeding offences. Then there's the lack of consistency: firstly you plead complete poverty saying you can afford to pay absolutely nothing; then you go on to request a meeting where you aim to negotiate a larger fine for fewer points.

To be brutally frank I doubt that your letter will be read (with any seriousness) much beyond the first few lines. As I said earlier, hardship (which forms the majority of your pleading) is not a matter for the ticket office at all and not something they can respond to. You need to concentrate on cutting your losses. Make sure you have named yourself for all the offences; accept any courses or fixed penalties you are offered. They will be far and away the cheapest disposals you will be offered. Then set about planning to deal with having your licence revoked and arranging to get a new provisional licence and retake your tests.
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Logician
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 00:44
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Be realistic, you are asking for things that cannot be done. Anyway, since you are on minimum wage and your company is in such financial difficulties that they cannot even pay you that on the due date, it is time to look for another job.


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Razzauk
post Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 22:44
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Okay, I sent another letter saying I would like to attend a course if the other two are dropped, had no response.

To this date, I've heard nothing...

I doubt they have 'forgotten' about it, or I'd have had an NFA letter wouldn't I?
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cp8759
post Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 22:55
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QUOTE (Razzauk @ Fri, 28 Jun 2019 - 23:44) *
Okay, I sent another letter saying I would like to attend a course if the other two are dropped, had no response.

To this date, I've heard nothing...

I doubt they have 'forgotten' about it, or I'd have had an NFA letter wouldn't I?

Can't you phone and ask?


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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