PCN - 50R - No Right Turn, No signs in CCTV footage |
PCN - 50R - No Right Turn, No signs in CCTV footage |
Sun, 19 May 2019 - 14:23
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 18 May 2019 Member No.: 103,926 |
Hi all,
Just received a PCN from Waltham Forest Council for a prohibited right turn. They've recently done work on this junction, previously there was a central reservation down the middle of Lea Bridge road which would have prevented a right turn. They've just taken that out (you can see the works happening in the street view link below). My concerns: - The CCTV images and the video do not show any evidence of the no right turn sign. The video is a 15 second clip which shows me turning right as per the stills in the PCN and nothing else. The camera does not pan away from that frame. - I've gone back to the area and noticed that there are now indeed no right turn signs mounted on the lamposts that you can see on the street view location as well as the screenshot I've included (the turn in question is by the green shop). However, I'm 80% confident these were not up at the time I drove past. As I mentioned, the works have only recently completed. So, question is - is the lack of signage in the CCTV evidence sufficient grounds to make representations? If it came down to it, what would the council need to do prove those signs were indeed there at the time? All images on this link: https://imgur.com/a/1LcXALw Street view: https://maps.app.goo.gl/iA9TNhLmbDtCRnam9 EDIT Added video here: https://imgur.com/a/vW1k5mR Thank you. This post has been edited by Wizzy93: Mon, 20 May 2019 - 09:41 |
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Sun, 19 May 2019 - 14:23
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Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 13:43
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#21
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Member Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 18 May 2019 Member No.: 103,926 |
Just drafted something up. Appreciate any review/comments. I've kept it to just these two points for now. My rationale is that as the sign is not visible in the evidence, down to the council to prove that the signs were there on the date of the contravention.
Representations are made against this PCN on the following principles: 1. The PCN is invalid. The applicable legislation says, at s5 (1) and (2): (1)Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent. (2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days beginning— (a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served; This PCN states on page 1: ‘The penalty charge of £130.00 must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice. If it is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of this notice the amount of penalty charge will be reduced by 50% to £65.00.’ Subsequently, on page 3, the PCN continues: ‘If the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge of £195 may be payable (this is a 50% increase of the Penalty Charge amount). We may then send you a Charge Certificate seeking payment of this increase amount. At this stage it would be too late to make representations. The wording in the PCN is not compliant with statutory requirements and acts to limit my rights in law. 2. Notwithstanding point 1, the PCN also fails to show any contravention. The PCN states that the alleged contravention is ‘50R Performing a prohibited turn (no right turn)’. The accompanying photos and CCTV video provided by the authority simply show my car performing a right turn. There is no evidence that the turn in question is prohibited, with no signage or road markings visible to indicate any such restriction. |
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Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 14:35
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#22
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The applicable legislation says, at s5 (1) and (2): No, it's paragraphs 5(1) and (2) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 which you can find here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/...graph/5/enacted, if you're going to start quoting laws at people you really want to get it right. Sections 5(1) and (2) here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/5/enacted have nothing to do with your PCN. The second point could be made better but given the urgency, I'd just sent it off as it is, the council will no doubt reject in any event. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 10 Jun 2019 - 15:33
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#23
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Member Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 18 May 2019 Member No.: 103,926 |
The applicable legislation says, at s5 (1) and (2): No, it's paragraphs 5(1) and (2) of Schedule 1 to the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 which you can find here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/...graph/5/enacted, if you're going to start quoting laws at people you really want to get it right. Sections 5(1) and (2) here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/section/5/enacted have nothing to do with your PCN. The second point could be made better but given the urgency, I'd just sent it off as it is, the council will no doubt reject in any event. Noted, and thank you. I've submitted with the amended reference to the legislation. Waiting game begins. Will update when I have something. |
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Thu, 1 Aug 2019 - 10:29
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#24
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Member Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 18 May 2019 Member No.: 103,926 |
Update. So after just over 7 weeks of waiting and no response from the council, I have now received a charge certificate as attached in the link below.
I logged into my online PCN, and it now has this under case status (please see last image in link): QUOTE A Charge Certificate has been sent out for this Penalty Charge Notice, and no further representation can be accepted. However, the Council may consider late submission of representation under exceptional circumstances. This needs to be submitted to the Notice Processing Dept by post, clearly stating a valid reason (details on the original Penalty Charge Notice or parking pages of the website). When I had previously submitted my representations online, this status had said something along the lines of 'your representations have been received and you will receive a response in the post'. I don't have any screenshot of this as didn't feel the need to take it at the time, but in hindsight I wish I had. Right now I have no evidence that the representations were submitted. I have not moved address since the original PCN was received and have kept a close eye on all incoming post but have seen no response to my representations. Please advise the next steps I can take. Charge Certificate + online PCN view |
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Thu, 1 Aug 2019 - 11:55
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#25
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
How did you send the representation, online or by post? And do you have proof i.e. screenshot or certificate of posting?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 1 Aug 2019 - 13:37
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#26
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Member Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 18 May 2019 Member No.: 103,926 |
I submitted the representations online. Unfortunately didn't take a screenshot of the submission, or the subsequent status which said the reps had been received.
Beating myself up for it now, just didn't think of it in the moment, and now here we are. Do I have to go down the route of making a statutory declaration that I didn't receive a response to representations? |
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Thu, 1 Aug 2019 - 18:48
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#27
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Do I have to go down the route of making a statutory declaration that I didn't receive a response to representations? Unfortunately yes. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 09:31
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#28
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Member Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 18 May 2019 Member No.: 103,926 |
Ok, understood.
Just so I'm clear, my next steps are: - Wait to receive the Order for Recovery - Complete the Witness Statement form that comes with it - Get it witnessed by a solicitor/county court - Email/post it to the TEC - Wait for the outcome All covered? Anything to watch out for in this process? |
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Fri, 2 Aug 2019 - 12:23
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#29
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
What you've posted is correct but it's not the end of the matter. Once the TEC has accepted your SD, the council will refer the case to the tribunal, and it will be dealt with as an appeal.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 15:45
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#30
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Member Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 18 May 2019 Member No.: 103,926 |
Ok - big change. I've just been trawling through my emails and discovered that I did indeed receive a receipt that my online representations had been received by the council. A screenshot of this can be viewed on this link. Big relief.
Am I correct in assuming that it makes no difference to the process for the time being however? I suppose I still have to wait for the OfR and submit the declaration that I have received no response to the representations, and let the process take its course? |
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Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 16:11
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#31
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Ok - big change. I've just been trawling through my emails and discovered that I did indeed receive a receipt that my online representations had been received by the council. A screenshot of this can be viewed on this link. Big relief. Am I correct in assuming that it makes no difference to the process for the time being however? I suppose I still have to wait for the OfR and submit the declaration that I have received no response to the representations, and let the process take its course? correct but when things are reset and the council refer to an adjudicator it helps in an argument that CC was issued before allowed a further ground -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 5 Aug 2019 - 16:49
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#32
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Indeed, if the council received the representations then the failure to respond is a procedural impropriety which should win on its own.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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