PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

PCN - Suspended Bay - COVID / Public Protection
seabet
post Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 16:18
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 10 Jan 2021
Member No.: 111,185



Hi All,

First of all, thank you for all the hard work that everyone puts in answering the threads on here. Thoroughly appreciated.

Today, along with 30 other cars, we received a PCN for parking in suspended bays in the following location:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/51%C2%B03...#33;4d0.6424392

Being in a tier 4 area the council have taken it upon themselves to suspend the bays to avoid people walking to a popular area in Southend. I walked down to pickup some seafood and was stung when I returned to my car, thanks for that Southend Borough Council...

The signs in my opinion were not very clear and caught out many others today. Payday for the council!

I was wondering if anyone had any tips to help appeal this.

PCN FRONT / BACK
https://ibb.co/sVdxL7t
https://ibb.co/prBMQR0

SIGNAGE + ZOOMED IN
https://ibb.co/bXDj6nM
https://ibb.co/JBR3GrR
https://ibb.co/4S6J6xK
https://ibb.co/fx66h2d

Any answers are thoroughly appreciated!
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 11)
Advertisement
post Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 16:18
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Incandescent
post Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 17:11
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,556
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



Did you miss the sign, or see it and ignore it ? As far as can be seen on GSV, there are two parking signs, one at each end of this long bay. There should be a suspension sign below each one; is there ?
Unfortunately with parking bays, the motorist must check the signs that define the restriction each time parking is done. Trouble is most people who park in a spot frequently tend not to do this.

One thing I see is that there is a flaw in the PCN when it comes to stating they may issue a Notice to Owner. All PCNs must state that if representations have been made to the PCN, but the council issue a Notice to Owner before any response has been made to those reps, the recipient of the NtO must follow the instructions on the NtO. Here it doesn't. Whether this would win at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal one cannot say, but it is an omission of mandatory PCN information. This mandatory information is there to make sure people who submit reps, then get a NtO, don't ignore it thinking they have already submitted representations. I consider this so important that it makes the PCN void but I'm not an adjudicator. Far too many of them are rather too fond of the "substantial compliance" argument.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 17:20
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
seabet
post Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 20:29
Post #3


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 10 Jan 2021
Member No.: 111,185



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 17:11) *
Did you miss the sign, or see it and ignore it ? As far as can be seen on GSV, there are two parking signs, one at each end of this long bay. There should be a suspension sign below each one; is there ?
Unfortunately with parking bays, the motorist must check the signs that define the restriction each time parking is done. Trouble is most people who park in a spot frequently tend not to do this.

One thing I see is that there is a flaw in the PCN when it comes to stating they may issue a Notice to Owner. All PCNs must state that if representations have been made to the PCN, but the council issue a Notice to Owner before any response has been made to those reps, the recipient of the NtO must follow the instructions on the NtO. Here it doesn't. Whether this would win at the Traffic Penalty Tribunal one cannot say, but it is an omission of mandatory PCN information. This mandatory information is there to make sure people who submit reps, then get a NtO, don't ignore it thinking they have already submitted representations. I consider this so important that it makes the PCN void but I'm not an adjudicator. Far too many of them are rather too fond of the "substantial compliance" argument.


Thanks for the reply.

I totally missed the sign, along with every other car there. Annoyingly the row is usually free for 3 hours however they have suspended it along with other popular locations to avoid people parking in these popular areas.

There is a sign as per this image:

https://ibb.co/bXDj6nM

However I stupidly didn't see it and only paid attention to the usual sign I look at.

With regards to the flaw in the PCN, I will have a look into this. However I feel that this must be an issue they have come across before, otherwise they would have changed their wording.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 21:18
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,224
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



Show all the council photos

show us exactly where you parked

Was there a sign on all of the parking sign lamp posts

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 21:21


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 22:23
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,556
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



QUOTE
However I stupidly didn't see it and only paid attention to the usual sign I look at.

Maybe not stupidly. Please tell us what/where is the usual sign you look at, or post a photo of it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
seabet
post Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 22:50
Post #6


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 10 Jan 2021
Member No.: 111,185



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 21:18) *
Show all the council photos

show us exactly where you parked

Was there a sign on all of the parking sign lamp posts


I parked pretty much exactly here on the South side of the road.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/51%C2%B03...#33;4d0.6424392

There were signs on all the lamp posts unfortunately.

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 22:23) *
QUOTE
However I stupidly didn't see it and only paid attention to the usual sign I look at.

Maybe not stupidly. Please tell us what/where is the usual sign you look at, or post a photo of it.


The lamp post I reference to is this one:

https://ibb.co/bXDj6nM

The sign reads:

9 am - 6pm
3 hours
No return
within 4 hours

The sign is a bit worn and difficult to read, not sure if that has any bearing on the situation though?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Sun, 10 Jan 2021 - 23:13
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 15,556
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



QUOTE
The lamp post I reference to is this one:

https://ibb.co/bXDj6nM

The sign reads:

9 am - 6pm
3 hours
No return
within 4 hours

The sign is a bit worn and difficult to read, not sure if that has any bearing on the situation though?


I find it difficult to believe you never noticed the very prominent sign underneath it telling you parking was suspended. I suspect it was the presence of all the other cars that caused you to ignore it, am I right ?Nothing to be ashamed of, lots of people fall into this trap. but unfortunately it has cost you money on this ocasion. However, it may be worth appealing to the TPT on the failure to tell you about n on-receipt of a response to a PCN if a NTO is issued. I'm not sure, but this may have won appeals in the past. but trouble is the TPT don't have an on-line searchable cases register, unlike London Tribunals, so it's difficult to find cases to back up this argument.

Hopefully others will chime in, but don't miss any legal deadlines, like the discount end date.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Mon, 11 Jan 2021 - 08:18
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,007
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



That's not the Council's authorised suspension sign:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3232.pdf

The Order looks like a Sect 14 so there could be an argument that the contravention should have been a Code 01 or 02. However, in these times, I doubt an adjudicator would gainsay a Covid restriction.

Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Mon, 11 Jan 2021 - 08:53
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 28,122
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551




No wonder Covid rates are on the increase:

You must not leave or be outside your home except where necessary.
You may only leave the home for a limited number of reasons - including shopping for necessities


These restrictions are as clear and plain as the signs on the lamp posts etc.

But if people choose to ignore them....

I just wish it was only their health they're putting at risk, but it isn't.

What the hell is necessary about seafood?

Oh well, I should get my jab by the end of Feb and until then I'll steer clear of Southend and Cheshire East.

Rant over.

Pay the discount.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 15:31
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,183
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Mon, 11 Jan 2021 - 08:18) *
That's not the Council's authorised suspension sign:-

http://assets.dft.gov.uk/trafficauths/case-3232.pdf

The Order looks like a Sect 14 so there could be an argument that the contravention should have been a Code 01 or 02. However, in these times, I doubt an adjudicator would gainsay a Covid restriction.

We need to be careful with that, I've seen at least one TTRO that suspended a parking place rather than impose a loading or waiting restriction. It does seem like overkill as the council will have suspension powers in the permanent TRO, but I don't see how we could argue that a TTRO can't be used to say a bay is suspended.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mad Mick V
post Wed, 13 Jan 2021 - 19:34
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 9,007
Joined: 28 Mar 2007
Member No.: 11,355



It says on the sign that it is governed by a TTRO under Sect 14 of the RTRA. So where's the Notice that has to be displayed?--Part 2 (4) here:-

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/1215/schedule/made

Mick
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 14 Jan 2021 - 15:45
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 22,183
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



Good point Mick.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Section 6 of the Interpretation Act 1978 applies to everything I post as it would apply to an Act of Parliament.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Saturday, 16th January 2021 - 14:31
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.