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MS90, 6 points and license revoked (new driver), Stat Dec soon. Help please., Threads merged x3
Stripes
post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:19
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Hi thanks for reading and please advise me if you could.
In June 2018, I was on a trip in Wales and was, unbeknownst to me, caught doing 40mph on a 30mph road. I live in a flat above a closed down office and received no letters at all. In December (now), I was in the process of moving to a new house so decided to update my driving license address. It would come up with an error repeatedly which was weird. I tried over a couple of days. So one day I decided to ask the DVLA why it won't let me change my address. Before ringing them I quickly checked my license details online using their website and saw that I have 6 points under MS90 and my license has been revoked in November under the New Drivers Act (I passed in May 2017). This of course shocked me so I rang everyone possible, and here are the responses I got. The DVLA said to ring my local magistrate and do a Stat Dec which is booked on the Friday 11th of Jan 2019. I got access to the closed offices beneath my flat and found a whole heap of letters including the NIP and letters from the DVLA. Now, here's the weird bit. My flats address is (not mentioned the real number so will use 123) 123A Something Road. Now half of the letters were addressed to 123 Something Road and some to my flat 123A. I rang the Welsh police force who issued the NIP and they said my address on log book and insurance was down as 123 Something Road, which I hadn't realised at all. However, my license address with the DVLA is 123A. I was completely unaware and thought there must be a problem. I had previously not received council tax letters to my flat either. Every letter, regardless of whether it's being addressed to 123 or 123A ends up in the closed down office. It was impossible for me to receive any letters as the post service has the top flat and bottom office down as 123 Something Road and they're giving me written confirmation of this soon. This may be why my insurance and log book has the wrong address. Anyway, I have to do a Stat Dec on the 11th and have read topics on here but I'm really unsure about the process and whether I'll be allowed to drive my car soon after it as I need it to travel to university. If you could answer the following questions it'll be really helpful.
1. What should I plead in regards to speeding and the failure to provide information.
2. How long after I submit the Stat Dec does the endorsement get removed and I can start driving?
3. What's the likelihood they'll drop the MS90 on the day if I do a plea bargain, and also how likely is it that I'll be allowed to bargain. Or who do I bargain with?
4. Do I need to take evidence with me to the magistrates for my Stat Dec?
5. If they set a new court date in Wales, will I need a solicitor to go with me or is it possible to fight this on my own? Would the letter from Royal Mail admitting no letters were being sent to my actual flat be enough to squash the MS90?
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post Mon, 7 Jan 2019 - 16:19
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cp8759
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:58
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QUOTE (Stripes @ Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 14:57) *
3 points and a 40 pound fine.

40 or 400?


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Logician
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 20:42
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QUOTE (Stripes @ Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 15:24) *
Would you know which date id have to tell my insurer. Today as in the date I was convicted or June the date of speeding


QUOTE
I started my policy with them in September 2018 and if I have to say I got a SP30 in June then they'll charge me an extra 1300 in insurance. But would this not be false as the speeding was in June but i received no points until January 2019 and also the court wiped out all the MS90 and points, at the time of insuring the car in September 2018 I had no points and no conviction


Give the correct information in the way most helpful to you, such as "I now have 3 points on my licence following a conviction on 11/1/19 for an offence on 25/6/18." If they want more information to explain the long gap between the two dates they can ask for it and you can explain in full.



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Stripes
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 00:09
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Damn. I informed my insurance today and they said as the offence was in June and my policy was taken out in September, its going to increase my premium by £1300. I already paid £2300 for insurance. I think I'm going to have to cancel the policy I won't be extorted for something that was out of my control. I tried explaining that I didn't have the points when I signed up for insurance with them and that I just got them today but they said they're counting it as me having SP30 from the date of the offence.
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Slapdash
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 00:17
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Did you provide your driving licence number to them when taking out the policy?

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The Rookie
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 01:56
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That much for one SP30 is outrageous, it’s clearly a rip off, do a dummy quote on a comparison site with a made up name at the house next door and using a reg number for a near identical car (find one on autotrader) and see how much they should be charging.....


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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 19:03
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QUOTE (Stripes @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 00:09) *
Damn. I informed my insurance today and they said as the offence was in June and my policy was taken out in September, its going to increase my premium by £1300. I already paid £2300 for insurance. I think I'm going to have to cancel the policy I won't be extorted for something that was out of my control. I tried explaining that I didn't have the points when I signed up for insurance with them and that I just got them today but they said they're counting it as me having SP30 from the date of the offence.

Shop around, many insurance companies don't add anything at all for a single SP30.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Stripes
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 14:57
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QUOTE (Slapdash @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 00:17) *
Did you provide your driving licence number to them when taking out the policy?

I believe I did, what's the significance of me giving my driving license number to them?

I've tried looking around and the insurance quotes are completely out of whack. On my original quote for 2300 as soon as I added the SP30 it jumped to 6000+. I should mention I'm 19 so I guess it's fair enough on their part but what's unfair is my current insurer trying to rip me off. As far as I see it, I had no clue about the points or anything until December, the whole MS90 charge was wiped and I was just given 3 points for SP30 a few days ago. If they think they can use that as an excuse to extort me by backdating it then they can give me my premium back and I'll leave.
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Slapdash
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 15:46
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The significance - well it might not be anything. And I am unsure of the timeline and whether your insurers are trying to backdate the charge and also what your insurer contractual requirement for disclosure is.

But, by giving you licence number they may be a thin argument that their due diligence meant they should have verified the veracity of the information given from your driving record.

That may may possibly give ground for formal complaint and escalation to the FCA.

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NewJudge
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 16:46
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QUOTE (Slapdash @ Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 15:46) *
But, by giving you licence number they may be a thin argument that their due diligence meant they should have verified the veracity of the information given from your driving record.

That may may possibly give ground for formal complaint and escalation to the FCA.

Leaving aside the merit (or otherwise) of the OP's argument, that approach implies it is OK to mislead an insurer because it is their responsibility to verify what you tell them. If they don't you cannot be held responsible. I don't see the FCA wearing that, somehow.
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Slapdash
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 17:12
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I wasn't suggesting it is Ok to mislead. Merely that failing to disclose an unknown conviction may well not be negligent.
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Stripes
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 18:14
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Sorry I'll clear up some of the timeline. In June 2018 I was flashed by a camera. Took out insurance in September 2018. In November 2018 I was given 6 points and my license revoked without me knowing. In December 2018 I found out about the whole scenario and in January 2019 the 6 points were removed as i had no knowledge of the speeding and I was given 3 points instead. Now when informing my insurance, they said what was the date of the offence, to which I replied the speeding ticket was issued in June but all charges in relation to it were wiped and I've just been convicted of SP30 offence. They're saying if the 'date of offence' is June, I am liable to pay £1300 more, but if the date of offence is January it occured after I started my policy so they can't demand more money but they'll increase renewal price. My point is that at the time of insuring in September, my license was completely clean. 0 points. Now I have 3 after taking out insurance but they're trying to backdate the whole scenario. The official answer I suppose I will get when the courts update the DVLA and they update my online license and the date of offence will be displayed there. I believe the date of offence for a minor thing like SP30 starts from the day of the speeding whereas serious things like drink driving are from date of conviction so I'm going to have to tell insurers the date of offence is June and they'll try to get 1300 out of me, to which I'm going to respond by cancelling
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Slapdash
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 19:05
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Your insurers need to be clearer on their terminology as to what they require.

date of offence - this being the date of the incident. Back in June in yoir case.

date of conviction - this being the date you were convicted (January).

Your insurers need to be clear which is relevant to them (they must know).

I personally have never had an insurer interested in offence date only the date of conviction.

Edit: fwiw CompareTheMarket quite specifically request conviction dates.

This post has been edited by Slapdash: Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 19:21
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andy_foster
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 19:06
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In other words, when you took out your insurance you had no convictions and were not aware of any pending convictions.


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Andy

"Whatever the intention of Parliament was, or was not, the law is quite clear." - The Rookie
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Logician
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 21:02
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I think you are right, but shop around before cancelling the policy.


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Stripes
post Sun, 13 Jan 2019 - 21:46
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I was on the phone to them for ages and they really didn't have a clue the guy just kept repeating I want the date of the offence. Call centre wasn't UK based not sure he even knows what a conviction date is. They were just reading off a screen that said Date of offence. They will take my word for it if I say January but if I have an accident and they dig around they might say I gave them the wrong date and cancel me/not pay out. I'm not trying to defraud them or anything but I just think it's ridiculous they can use semantics to get money out of me. I've shopped around and there's nothing under 6 thousand pounds. Unfortunately, thats the end of cars for me. Going to do the CBT and buy a bike. Much better on insurance. Thanks for your help guys its kept me semi sane through all this. If you have any advice on whether I can get around this insurance problem I'd appreciate it.

And what I've noticed is the insurance companies will use every way to stick it to the customer. When getting a new policy, places like compare the market and most insurers will ask for date of conviction because it's always the later date and there's a chance the offence date has expired but you're still within 5 years of the conviction date and have to declare = money. But when it comes to something like my situation they want offence date so they can try to scam money out of people.
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Logician
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 01:41
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You may get a better deal through a broker, try Adrian Flux


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The Rookie
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 02:12
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At the time you took out the policy your information was correct, you had no convictions and were not aware of any. It’s the same situation as if you had been stopped the day after you took out the policy, or received the NIP the day after for an offence that occurred before, the risk they assessed at that time was correct.

I’d be submitting a formal complaint and asking they suspend the extra demand until it’s heard.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 02:13


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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Churchmouse
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 08:45
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On what basis are they demanding that you pay them now, rather that at renewal? Non-disclosure? AFAIK, you did not have anything to disclose, but the industry term for this seems to be "innocent non-disclosure" of a material fact. It would be unwise to force the insurer into cancelling your policy, as that ("Have you ever had a policy of insurance cancelled?") is something you will be asked about every time you apply for insurance in the future. But you can ask them to clarify the basis for their demand and go from there.

My understanding is that the Financial Ombudsman Service (FAS), the insurance industry's regulator, views innocent non-disclosure in this way:

QUOTE
what doesn't need to be disclosed

We are unlikely to say an insurer should have expected a consumer to provide information if we think:

the insurer did not ask a specific and clear question which - if answered honestly - would have given them that information

the consumer did not know the information or

the consumer could not reasonably have been expected to know.

I do not see any justification for the insurer either cancelling the policy (which they would have done already) or increasing the premium before the renewal date, based on the facts you have provided here. So, I would keep them talking (ideally in writing!), and if they fail to resolve the dispute over the increased premium, first lodge a "formal complaint" with the insurer and, after that has been investigated and rejected, escalate the dispute to the FAS. (The FAS will not get involved until you have gone down the internal complaint route.) If you are ultimately successful, then your insurance record will be clean, you'll just have an SP30 to disclose, and you can easily go to another insurer rather than renew with your current one.

--Churchmouse
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Stripes
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:20
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I'm definately going to keep trying and try to speak to someone higher up who can give me a straight answer but their terms aren't 'punishing' me for non disclosure as I told them I just got the points the day I rang them. They're saying as the offence occured (speeding) before you were insured, we would've calculated your premiums differently so here's a £1300 increase for you. I tried explaining every which way that i received these points while in my insurance year not before. I rang back a couple of times to confirm but they were just reading off there screen which says what's the 'date of offence' and then it calculated a higher premium. I will definitely begin the process of a formal internal complaint but where does this put my insurance in the mean time while they spend 6 weeks ignoring it? Should I continue to drive knowing that they're going to want £1300 if I ever want it to be legitimate in their eyes?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:29
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QUOTE (Stripes @ Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 09:20) *
They're saying as the offence occured (speeding) before you were insured, we would've calculated your premiums differently

But that's EXACTLY the same as if you got a NIP (for a speeding offence) the day after renewal for an event that happened before renewal, something neither you or they could have predicted would happen, with many NIP's taking circa 6 weeks to arrive (via a third party) that would potentially impact a lot of renewals.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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