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34j PCN Bus Lane Mandeville Road Northolt (North-Eastward)
nonotagain
post Sat, 22 Dec 2018 - 11:29
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Should I just pay or is there anything I can do to challenge this.

I had just past the station and wanted to move left to avoid getting stuck in the wrong lane for the left turn into Eastcote Lane.
I didn't realises until too late that the bus lane continued on the other side of the bridge as there are traffic lights with ziz zag lines on the hump.
It was also night and just 7 minutes before the lane would be open to all traffic.

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http://www.viewmypcn.co.uk/Default.aspx?r=...09d2eec29ae8abd

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5480357,-0....6384!8i8192

thanks for any advice
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post Sat, 22 Dec 2018 - 11:29
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cp8759
post Sat, 22 Dec 2018 - 13:12
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IMO the signage is inadequate. It's been ruled that the pedestrian crossing zig-zags do not form part of the bus lane, and if the bus lane starts again after the pedestrian crossing, the relevant signage should be present.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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nonotagain
post Sun, 23 Dec 2018 - 10:32
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thanks for the reply.

actually it looks like this is where I got caught

https://www.mylondon.news/incoming/northolt...learly-10952906

so with Ealing taking that attitude not sure I have much chance.

anyway can't hurt to email a challenge just need to work out my best arguments.
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cp8759
post Sun, 23 Dec 2018 - 18:44
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You have to understand the council will never accept their signage is inadequate, so in reality you'll almost certainly reject (twice) and you'll then have to appeal to the tribunal, which fortunately is independent of the council. However IMO it is worth taking this all the way, as you're given no warning whatsoever that there's a bus lane coming up ahead.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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bobthesod
post Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 09:25
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cp

Can you dig up where it states about the break in bus lanes needing signs at the recommencement?
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cp8759
post Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 10:59
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QUOTE (bobthesod @ Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 09:25) *
cp

Can you dig up where it states about the break in bus lanes needing signs at the recommencement?

Tribunal decision in Neville Stanley v London Borough of Lambeth (case reference 2170474513):

"Mr. Stanley appeals against a penalty charge notice issued in respect of an allegation of a contravention of the prohibition on being in a bus lane.
There is no dispute about the evidence. On Lambeth Road, south-west bound there is a sign properly indicating the entrance to the bus lane just after the junction with Pratt Walk and, thereafter, the bus lane is properly demarcated with a solid white line in accordance with item 1049A, which is item 11 in Part 6 of Schedule 9 to the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 (“the 2016 Regulations”). The solid line then stops and is replaced, on each side of the south-west bound carriageway at a point before the junction with Lambeth High Street, with the zig-zag road markings that are required to demarcate the limits of a zebra crossing. The solid white line then appears to resume at a point after that junction where there is a further ‘bus lane’ sign. The CCTV footage shows Mr. Stanley’s motorbike remaining on the correct, off-side of the solid white line. As soon as that line stops, he steered his motorbike over the zig-zag lines into the nearside line that, on the EA’s case, is the bus lane. He did not cross over the solid white line.
Mr. Stanley’s argument is to the effect that the effect of the zig-zag lines indicating the entry into a zebra crossing bring the effect of the bus lane to an end. In the alternative, he submits that those zig zag lines give the appearance to the motorist that the bus lane has come to an end and that it is no longer enforceable, because the requisite signage is no longer compliant and adequate. He points to the resumed thick white line and bus lane sign as an indication of the resumption of the bus lane after the junction with Lambeth High Street. That, he says, is inconsistent with the bus lane having remained constant throughout.
I would have been assisted by more detailed submissions from the EA on the effect of the zig-zag lines and the limits of the zebra crossing. Indeed, I was not even provided with the TMO, merely with the temporary TMO that changes the times of it. However, given I am familiar with this TMO I am aware of its terms. In particular, the bus lane extends, according to the original TMO, on Lambeth Road between the two junctions referred to above. If the EA is correct that the bus lane is effective and enforceable throughout that length, then at the point at which Mr. Stanley crossed into it he was in the bus lane in contravention of the TMO.
Part 5 of Schedule 9 to the 2016 Regulations states that:
The information, requirement, restriction or prohibition of a description in column 2 of an item in the sign table in Part 6 must be conveyed by a road marking that is of the size, colour and type shown in the diagram in column 3.
A bus lane is a description in column 2 and the solid white line is in column 3 of Part 6. There are certain exceptions to the requirement for the solid white line, but none apply here. Accordingly, once the solid white line stops, the road marking is no longer compliant with the 2016 Regulations. A motorist would be entitled to think that the bus lane had come to an end. For the reasons I give below, the bus lane has, for the purposes of the zebra crossing, come to an end but, in any event, the mandatory road marking is not present, so the signage is, I find, not compliant with the 2016 Regulations, or adequate to convey adequate information about the prohibition to the motorist, in accordance with Regulation 18 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996. I allow the appeal on this basis because the contravention did not occur.
Moreover, I further find that the signage correctly represents the position that, whatever the TMO states, the effect of the zebra crossing is to create a separate traffic regulatory regime within its limits which ousts the effect of the bus lane. The zig-zag markings indicate a zebra crossing subject to regulations made under s.25 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984. Those regulations include Part 5 of Schedule 14 to the 2016 Regulations. This part contains requirements and prohibitions applicable to zebra crossings, the limits of which are demarcated by the zig-zag lines. One of these requirements is that a driver of a vehicle must not cause it to overtake a vehicle that is stopped or proceeding more slowly in the same direction. That, for example, is inconsistent with the very purpose of a bus lane in which buses have a free-standing lane in which they can pass vehicles in the other lanes, including by undertaking them. That illustrates that the two regimes are not compatible. The effect of the zebra crossing, which concerns public safety, takes precedence over the effect of the TMO. Accordingly, I find that the bus lane ceases to have effect within the limits of a zebra crossing. I would therefore have allowed the appeal on this basis also."


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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nonotagain
post Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 14:05
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although the above refers to a zebra crossing, It looks like the rules also apply to zig zags on pelican crossings, i.e. no passing the lead vehicle.
I'm going to try and send the initial challenge today as sending it over the next few days could be tricky and I don't want to miss the initial 14 day deadline and that will give me a little more time to decide the odds on gambling an extra 55 quid.
thanks for the help so far.
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cp8759
post Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 17:43
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They will reject, post the rejection when it arrives.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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nonotagain
post Mon, 24 Dec 2018 - 18:51
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Will do, thanks and happy holidays smile.gif
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nonotagain
post Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 13:23
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Hi I got my rejection, as expected,
Now need to decide in the next week or so whether to proceed or just pay.

From what I can gather if I want to proceed I wait for the Enforcement notice, I thought that was when I made the appeal, but It looks like I 1st have to make a formal representation to Ealing, details of which will be specified in the Enforcement notice. Then if that fails I can make an appeal to the adjudicator.

Is there an example on here of someone who has gone through both of these or a description of what to expect, I've had a quick look but probably didn't search properly.

And if I do go ahead, roughly what are my chances.

I was 1st in the queue at the traffic lights, and when they went green, not realising the bus lane continued, I moved to the left as I was worried cars behind me would be doing the same and I didn't want to risk cutting someone up.

I have since driven there again, and nothing has changed from what can been seen on streetview.

here is the reply.
thanks for any help

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http://www.viewmypcn.co.uk/Default.aspx?r=...09d2eec29ae8abd


This post has been edited by nonotagain: Fri, 11 Jan 2019 - 16:19
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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 08:37
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To be honest there's no reason not to challenge further, in our experience 90% of the time they re-offer the discount at the next stage anyway. They do this partly to discourage you from appealing to the tribunal, as every appeal costs the council something like £32 in tribunal fees.

The one thing I will say is, before you challenge the Enforcement Notice, do two things: 1) Upload the EN so we can check for errors, and 2) Post a draft of your challenge before submitting it to the council.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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nonotagain
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 18:16
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Thanks again, very very very roughly speaking what would you put on my odds of success?
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cp8759
post Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 23:23
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QUOTE (nonotagain @ Sat, 12 Jan 2019 - 18:16) *
Thanks again, very very very roughly speaking what would you put on my odds of success?

Because of the length of the zig-zags, you can make a credible argument that you thought the bus lane had ended, and had there been a bus lane sign after the zig-zags, you would have not moved to the left in the way you did. I think your odds are maybe 50/50, but see what others think.

However as I said, there's nothing to lose in trying the council one more time, because even if they reject, they will re-offer the discount. At that point (if it comes to it) you will need to chose between paying up or risking the full amount at the tribunal.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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