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PCN Code 40 Parking in Disabled Space w/o Clock
RedDeath614
post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 18:15
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Hi all, we got a PCN yesterday for parking in a disabled space, without displaying the clock. Badge was displayed correctly. I came back to car (mum was still in shop) in the interim to find warden issuing a ticket. He then pointed to a sign which said there was a 3 hour time limit for disabled badges in the bay and without a clock, how would anyone know what time we had arrived? He also said I was not the badge owner so refused to discuss anything with me, which was weird. I said we came into town at 6.15pm, his ticket was issued around 6.45pm and we had driven home by 7pm. We have shop receipts to verify the times of our 2x purchases between 6.30-6.50pm but will this help or not? I was calling my mum but she's also hard of hearing so she didn't pick up and the guy had the cheek to allege I was misusing the badge as he could see no disabled person present. I did tell him we would not be paying the ticket and he dismissively said we could contest it.

I'm baffled to see a warden beyond 6pm in the city, however they must be wandering around until midnight.
I'd also say the majority of bays are no longer time limited for blue badge holders, so there is a habit where neither of us check this, but we will of course always use the clock now.

Is there any way to fight it? Can we say we displayed the clock but it had fallen off the dashboard?

Pics of ticket are attached, I can take and upload ones of the street and where we were parked if needed too.


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post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 18:15
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DancingDad
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 16:07
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 16:48) *
…….. plus the signage would need to specify that a clock must be displayed and presumably the SoS would need to authorise the sign (I'm not sure there's a "clock must be displayed" sign in the TSRGD 2016).
...


Dunno that I would go so far to say that the signage must show that a clock must be displayed.
That, with a BB, is inherent the moment a timed restriction applies and is noted in the BB booklet (page 10 in my copy, "When you need to use a blue badge"
Booklet is guidance though and signs alone cannot be used to enforce a contravention.
The assumption is that the TRO would require a badge.
Assumptions can be challenged and when the TRO seems lacking, as this one does, must be.
This is all assuming that the TRO located is the correct one, OP must check.
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cp8759
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 16:11
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:07) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 16:48) *
…….. plus the signage would need to specify that a clock must be displayed and presumably the SoS would need to authorise the sign (I'm not sure there's a "clock must be displayed" sign in the TSRGD 2016).
...


Dunno that I would go so far to say that the signage must show that a clock must be displayed.

If it's not a requirement under the statute that the clock must be displayed, and the standard position is that a time-limited bay does not require a clock, how would the BB holder know about the clock requirement in the TRO if the sign doesn't tell them? In that scenario, a PCN would fail under LATOR 18.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 16:18
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:11) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:07) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 16:48) *
…….. plus the signage would need to specify that a clock must be displayed and presumably the SoS would need to authorise the sign (I'm not sure there's a "clock must be displayed" sign in the TSRGD 2016).
...


Dunno that I would go so far to say that the signage must show that a clock must be displayed.

If it's not a requirement under the statute that the clock must be displayed, and the standard position is that a time-limited bay does not require a clock, how would the BB holder know about the clock requirement in the TRO if the sign doesn't tell them? In that scenario, a PCN would fail under LATOR 18.

Standard position for a Disabled time limited bay is that it would require a clock.

This is one where it seems the TRO does not require so standard assumption does not apply.
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Wretched Rectum
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 16:38
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Even if the TRO required a disc clock to be displayed, this contravention description does not seem applicable

QUOTE
Parked in a designated disabled person’s parking place without
displaying a valid disabled person’s badge in the prescribed manner


The disc clock does not form part of the badge. They are completely different things.
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RedDeath614
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:03
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Hi peeps,

Wow, thanks for all the input on this. Really appreciate it.

Just called and asked for the most up to date TRO for Clarence Street. Should be emailed over this week.

Can I upload the full PDF document on here or can it be linked somehow via tinypic etc?

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DancingDad
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:12
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QUOTE (Wretched Rectum @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:38) *
Even if the TRO required a disc clock to be displayed, this contravention description does not seem applicable

QUOTE
Parked in a designated disabled person’s parking place without
displaying a valid disabled person’s badge in the prescribed manner


The disc clock does not form part of the badge. They are completely different things.


In terms of the contravention description they are part of the BB system and will be found sufficient by an adjudicator.
But not if the TRO does not require time clock.

Re PDF, Scribd is one site you can host I think, others will advise better.
But first check if it is the same as the linked one. Date and Title ?
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RedDeath614
post Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 10:16
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 10 Sep 2018 - 11:12) *
QUOTE (Wretched Rectum @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 17:38) *
Even if the TRO required a disc clock to be displayed, this contravention description does not seem applicable

QUOTE
Parked in a designated disabled person’s parking place without
displaying a valid disabled person’s badge in the prescribed manner


The disc clock does not form part of the badge. They are completely different things.


In terms of the contravention description they are part of the BB system and will be found sufficient by an adjudicator.
But not if the TRO does not require time clock.

Re PDF, Scribd is one site you can host I think, others will advise better.
But first check if it is the same as the linked one. Date and Title ?


Thanks, yes, I understand. Of course, I'll check the date and title first. If it is the same one I won't bother linking it. Hope they get back to me quickly.
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RedDeath614
post Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 09:43
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Hi all, I just want to know what deadline I have now for handling the response to this ticket?

Just heard from a baffled bloke at LCC Traffic Operations Dept who says he has to refer to Legal Services and has "no idea" when they will reply to the TRO request rolleyes.gif
I pushed him but he gave impression that Legal Services need "a lot of time" to "look into things" before responding.

Is my deadline 14 days - if the TRO does state a clock is needed with BB?

What if LCC Legal don't reply within my deadline? Can this info be used at possible TPT?

Should I challenge anyway on the basis of the TRO from 06/07, given that is the only publicly accessible info that can be found?
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Earl Purple
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 09:05
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So when a regular bay that can be used by anyone has a restriction of parking 1 hour no return within 2 hours (and is free) is the driver supposed to display a clock to show what time they arrived?

Never heard of it.

The enforcement officers simply check observation periods. With regards the disabled bay, if the restriction is 3 hours then check at 9am and if the car is still there after midday it has gone past 3 hours.
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 09:45
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QUOTE (RedDeath614 @ Thu, 13 Sep 2018 - 10:43) *
Hi all, I just want to know what deadline I have now for handling the response to this ticket?

Just heard from a baffled bloke at LCC Traffic Operations Dept who says he has to refer to Legal Services and has "no idea" when they will reply to the TRO request rolleyes.gif
I pushed him but he gave impression that Legal Services need "a lot of time" to "look into things" before responding.

Is my deadline 14 days - if the TRO does state a clock is needed with BB?

What if LCC Legal don't reply within my deadline? Can this info be used at possible TPT?

Should I challenge anyway on the basis of the TRO from 06/07, given that is the only publicly accessible info that can be found?



So put together a draft on the basis of advice so far and include the ground that the Council cannot enforce a Disabled Bay on the basis of a missing clock because the core TRO noted on the Council's webpage does not require a clock (parking disc) be displayed. That shifts the onus to the Council and requires them to justify their assertion that a clock is required.
Mick
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cp8759
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 10:27
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QUOTE (Earl Purple @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 10:05) *
So when a regular bay that can be used by anyone has a restriction of parking 1 hour no return within 2 hours (and is free) is the driver supposed to display a clock to show what time they arrived?

Never heard of it.

The enforcement officers simply check observation periods. With regards the disabled bay, if the restriction is 3 hours then check at 9am and if the car is still there after midday it has gone past 3 hours.

That is my understanding as well. A disabled driver parking in a disabled bay isn't using an exemption, he's just parking in a parking bay. If the parking bay is time-limited, the normal time-limited parking bay rules apply, unless someone can show me a statutory provision to the contrary.

I stand to be corrected but IMO to require the use of the clock, the highways authority would need both a provision in the TRO, and appropriate signage informing drivers of this additional requirement.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 11:33
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That they need to pass to Legal for a TRO request is ridiculous.
I suspect that what the baffled guy meant was that whether or not a time clock was required within the TRO would need the advice of Legal.
As far as supplying a copy of a TRO.
By law, they have to produce a copy for any citizen requesting to inspect one at council principle offices. Criminal offence to refuse.
That entails a personal visit but used to be the way to get one.
They don't have to provide a copy but nowadays, they are mostly in E Format and most highways departments are happy to email one.

Bye the bye, at the moment we have council website saying any TRO can be found within TPT library unless in the council update list.
Which this one isn't showing updated and is in TPT so entitled to rely on it, at least as far as using it in a challenge and requiring them to show different.

Not sure I agree with CP over the need for signage to show clock required, it is inherent in use of BB when there is a timed restriction and the BB guidance booklet specifically states this.
But that doesn't alter that signs (and inherent meanings) only reflect what is in the TRO and if the TRO does not require a clock, as this one doesn't, cannot enforce on signs alone.
I would also chuck in that requiring one to be used is discriminatory as no sort of clock is required in any other time restricted parking bay.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 14:21
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No sign is required to state ‘display’ when a permit or BB is being used, there is no variant to this effect neither is this a ‘permitted parking expression’, the only ‘display’ reference is ‘display ticket’.

Where did the hare regardng non-disabled bays come from?

The only implicit EA position we have is that the CEO issued a PCN and until the OP challenges and receives a response this isn’t going to change no matter how many iterations we make amongst ourselves.

Get the challenge submitted.

You say it doesn’t, they’ll say it does; so let’s get this show on the road.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 14:27
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cp8759
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 15:06
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 12:33) *
Not sure I agree with CP over the need for signage to show clock required, it is inherent in use of BB when there is a timed restriction and the BB guidance booklet specifically states this.

Is there anything statutory to support the bit in bold, considering the BB guidance booklet is not the law?

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 15:21) *
No sign is required to state ‘display’ when a permit or BB is being used, there is no variant to this effect neither is this a ‘permitted parking expression’, the only ‘display’ reference is ‘display ticket’.

Indeed, they would need authorisation from the SoS.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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RedDeath614
post Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 15:25
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 14 Sep 2018 - 10:45) *
So put together a draft on the basis of advice so far and include the ground that the Council cannot enforce a Disabled Bay on the basis of a missing clock because the core TRO noted on the Council's webpage does not require a clock (parking disc) be displayed. That shifts the onus to the Council and requires them to justify their assertion that a clock is required.
Mick


Thanks MM. My question is do I just wait for the 14 day deadline to pass and then wait for the NTO to come through? Then I can make the formal appeal?

I just don't want to miss any deadlines so want to double check.

Legal Dept may have sent link to the latest TRO by the time NTO arrives.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 16 Sep 2018 - 12:33) *
That they need to pass to Legal for a TRO request is ridiculous.
I suspect that what the baffled guy meant was that whether or not a time clock was required within the TRO would need the advice of Legal.
As far as supplying a copy of a TRO.
By law, they have to produce a copy for any citizen requesting to inspect one at council principle offices. Criminal offence to refuse.
That entails a personal visit but used to be the way to get one.
They don't have to provide a copy but nowadays, they are mostly in E Format and most highways departments are happy to email one.

Bye the bye, at the moment we have council website saying any TRO can be found within TPT library unless in the council update list.
Which this one isn't showing updated and is in TPT so entitled to rely on it, at least as far as using it in a challenge and requiring them to show different.

Not sure I agree with CP over the need for signage to show clock required, it is inherent in use of BB when there is a timed restriction and the BB guidance booklet specifically states this.
But that doesn't alter that signs (and inherent meanings) only reflect what is in the TRO and if the TRO does not require a clock, as this one doesn't, cannot enforce on signs alone.
I would also chuck in that requiring one to be used is discriminatory as no sort of clock is required in any other time restricted parking bay.


Yes it is ridiculous. At no point have I told Council why I want a copy of the latest TRO, I am merely exercising my right as a citizen to request one. So they are referring it to Legal because either they are too scared to send me this themselves or they are shirking their responsibility.

I have asked for an email copy or link to the latest TRO, I have specified I don't want a paper copy. So this should take even less time to do. But for some reason it will 'take a long time'.

IMO Council officers are just a waste of space.

I definitely intend to challenge this so will keep all posted. Thanks for the support.

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Mad Mick V
post Mon, 17 Sep 2018 - 16:33
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OP----You are now o/s the 14 day period so I would just wait until they send you the Notice to Owner and then formally appeal.
Mick
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RedDeath614
post Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 12:20
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Thanks MM.

LCC have sent me an updated TRO from 2016, however I don't believe it revokes anything re BB holders and Clarence Street.

It's only 10 pages but better to link it than spend all day copy/pasting the pages as images and then uploading to Tinypic.

Please could someone advise how best to do this? Scribd doesn't say anything about hosting files?

BTW It's an amendment order to the existing TRO. This amendment specifies changes to a Bus Lane in another street nearby.

Thanks in advance

This post has been edited by RedDeath614: Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 12:23
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DancingDad
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 10:27
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QUOTE (RedDeath614 @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:20) *
...........BTW It's an amendment order to the existing TRO. This amendment specifies changes to a Bus Lane in another street nearby.

Thanks in advance


In which case should not be an issue.
Go with the challenge based on no time clock required by TRO ????? (full title)

I'd take the tack that simple error in not setting/displaying the time clock but as BB was displayed and had not exceeded time allowed, apologies but would they cancel using discretion if nothing else.
BTW, in researching have found that the TRO does not require a time clock to be displayed so not sure there was a contravention anyway.
If they decide there was, after checking with legal dept if needs be, please detail the order, legislation or regulations that they rely on so you may consider future options.
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RedDeath614
post Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 23:07
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 20 Sep 2018 - 11:27) *
QUOTE (RedDeath614 @ Wed, 19 Sep 2018 - 13:20) *
...........BTW It's an amendment order to the existing TRO. This amendment specifies changes to a Bus Lane in another street nearby.

Thanks in advance


In which case should not be an issue.
Go with the challenge based on no time clock required by TRO ????? (full title)

I'd take the tack that simple error in not setting/displaying the time clock but as BB was displayed and had not exceeded time allowed, apologies but would they cancel using discretion if nothing else.
BTW, in researching have found that the TRO does not require a time clock to be displayed so not sure there was a contravention anyway.
If they decide there was, after checking with legal dept if needs be, please detail the order, legislation or regulations that they rely on so you may consider future options.


Great - so I say this stuff when I get the NTO? I'm happy to challenge it anyway so will just wait and keep everyone posted.

Thanks so much for all the help happy.gif
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RedDeath614
post Thu, 29 Nov 2018 - 21:08
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Hi all,

I got a notice of rejection from the council re this. I'm attaching below.

I asked them on what grounds they were enforcing the use of a clock along with a BB and could they direct me to this in their TRO but they have chosen to ignore the question rolleyes.gif

I've also just noticed that the warden has taken a photo of me next to the car and it's included in their evidence. I feel upset by this - had no idea the guy had taken photos of me as I was calling my mum and I would never have given permission for that. Can I say something about that or at least ask to have those destroyed? This photo wasn't included in their online evidence, but it clearly exists.

Next step is to go to appeal. What should I say?

This car has now been sold and the other ticket we got around the same time has been cancelled for some reason - not stated. I will post that letter up shortly too.








This post has been edited by RedDeath614: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 - 21:17
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