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PCN Code 40 Parking in Disabled Space w/o Clock
RedDeath614
post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 18:15
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Hi all, we got a PCN yesterday for parking in a disabled space, without displaying the clock. Badge was displayed correctly. I came back to car (mum was still in shop) in the interim to find warden issuing a ticket. He then pointed to a sign which said there was a 3 hour time limit for disabled badges in the bay and without a clock, how would anyone know what time we had arrived? He also said I was not the badge owner so refused to discuss anything with me, which was weird. I said we came into town at 6.15pm, his ticket was issued around 6.45pm and we had driven home by 7pm. We have shop receipts to verify the times of our 2x purchases between 6.30-6.50pm but will this help or not? I was calling my mum but she's also hard of hearing so she didn't pick up and the guy had the cheek to allege I was misusing the badge as he could see no disabled person present. I did tell him we would not be paying the ticket and he dismissively said we could contest it.

I'm baffled to see a warden beyond 6pm in the city, however they must be wandering around until midnight.
I'd also say the majority of bays are no longer time limited for blue badge holders, so there is a habit where neither of us check this, but we will of course always use the clock now.

Is there any way to fight it? Can we say we displayed the clock but it had fallen off the dashboard?

Pics of ticket are attached, I can take and upload ones of the street and where we were parked if needed too.


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post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 18:15
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DastardlyDick
post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 18:59
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Don't say the clock had fallen on the floor (unless of course it had). Should the porkie be discovered further down the line, it could cause all sorts of problems.

Just write to the Council saying you forgot to display it, genuine error, badge holder was with you etc etc and ask them to use their discretion on this occasion
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hcandersen
post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 20:15
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+1 with minor modification:

Just write to the Council saying you forgot to display it, genuine error, badge holder was with you and you had been parked for only *** minutes etc etc and ask them to use their discretion on this occasion
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RedDeath614
post Sun, 2 Sep 2018 - 20:43
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Thanks both - just hope this works icon_redface.gif
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hcandersen
post Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 08:21
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You have to see this in its correct perspective which is not what you knew or your motivation.

The CEO saw a car parked without a valid BB. They are not gifted with foresight or clairvoyance and according to the evidence they acted correctly. At its most simple level you were clearly in the wrong therefore your stance of ‘did tell him we would not be paying the ticket ..’ is not only wrong, it could be counterproductive: you were in the wrong and this should be our starting point.

Now we turn to the enforcement authority who should see both sides of the story because they have your account as well as the CEO’s notes etc. They have the council's guidance and the law. Do not antagonise them by casting aspersions or getting annoyed about the impression which the CEO gave you!

We shall see how this all unfolds.

Realistic expectations.
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DastardlyDick
post Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 09:07
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If they do reject your representation, post the letter up on here (with personal details obscured/redacted) and we'll have a look for errors. They will no doubt re-offer the discount, so in worst case scenario, it'll still be £35.
Having looked at GSV, I can see why CEOs are patrolling down there - vehicles all over the place - "target rich environment" for them.

This post has been edited by DastardlyDick: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 - 09:09
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RedDeath614
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 12:55
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Hi all, I sent the reply pleading leniency and asking for discretion but it's been rejected.

They thanked me for sending a copy of BB when I did no such thing. I sent a copy of 1x store receipt to verify the time we had been in the city. Did they even bother to read my challenge or look at the receipt?

Letter is below & photos from the Council.

Any opinions? We now have two of these for the same reason & it's not an excuse but my mum has recently been diagnosed with early stage dementia on top of existing issues so it's getting harder to look after her. GP could verify if needed. It looks like she didn't realise she hadn't put the clock out on display properly & you can see there's a blank piece of paper in the space where it would ordinarily have gone. Yes I should have checked but in all honesty we were in a rush to get to shops before they closed at 7pm.

Advice gratefully received.




LCC Photos






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DancingDad
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:44
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"Our decision is based on our policies"
This bit ?
QUOTE
When considering a challenge/representation against a PCN issued as a result of incorrectly displayed Blue Badge or parking clock, the Council will take into account previous PCNs issued to the same vehicle or Blue Badge holder. A challenge/ representation may be accepted only if no previous similar contravention has occurred. If the challenge/representation is accepted, the letter confirming acceptance will make it clear that challenges and representations for further PCNs issued for the same or similar reason will not be accepted.

https://www.leicester.gov.uk/media/183862/p...-guide-2018.pdf
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hcandersen
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 13:51
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OP, your choice:
Were you in the wrong? Yes.
Was the PCN issued lawfully? Yes.
Did they consider your reps? As far as we assume what you wrote, no they did not.
Your choices? Pay or owner makes reps against the NTO.
Grounds? Procedural.
Owner’s risk? Discount not re-offered.
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 14:56
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The key question is whether the Traffic Order specifies a clock be displayed. This is the core Order:-
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...ester/LE001.pdf
Clarence Street is noted on page 74.
It indicates at page 11 for Disabled Parking Bays:-"No Person shall cause or permit a vehicle to wait or to load and unload at any time in any road or length of road to which this restriction is applied except for vehicles displaying a disabled persons badge issued and displayed in accordance with the “Disabled Persons (Badges For Motor Vehicles) (England) Regulations 2000” and includes similar badges issued by other European Member States. Vehicles must be parked wholly within the parking bay marked on the carriageway. No vehicle may wait for more than 3 hours and may not return to the same length of parking bay restriction within a further consecutive period of 3 hours."
Nowt about a clock being required---same at Part 400.
Whether the Order has been amended is moot so the relevant one should be requested.
Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 14:59
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DancingDad
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 15:05
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 15:56) *
The key question is whether the Traffic Order specifies a clock be displayed. This is the core Order:-
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...ester/LE001.pdf
Clarence Street is noted on page 74.
It indicates at page 11 for Disabled Parking Bays:-"No Person shall cause or permit a vehicle to wait or to load and unload at any time in any road or length of road to which this restriction is applied except for vehicles displaying a disabled persons badge issued and displayed in accordance with the “Disabled Persons (Badges For Motor Vehicles) (England) Regulations 2000” and includes similar badges issued by other European Member States. Vehicles must be parked wholly within the parking bay marked on the carriageway. No vehicle may wait for more than 3 hours and may not return to the same length of parking bay restriction within a further consecutive period of 3 hours."
Nowt about a clock being required---same at Part 400.
Whether the Order has been amended is moot so the relevant one should be requested.
Mick


That puts it into a whole new ball game.
OP, get on the phone on Monday to Transprt and Streets department and get them to send you a copy of the relevant TRO.
https://www.leicester.gov.uk/transport-and-...ulation-orders/
Although if that page is up to date, the one MMV has pointed to is the latest smile.gif
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RedDeath614
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 21:14
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 16:05) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 15:56) *
The key question is whether the Traffic Order specifies a clock be displayed. This is the core Order:-
https://tro.trafficpenaltytribunal.gov.uk/T...ester/LE001.pdf
Clarence Street is noted on page 74.
It indicates at page 11 for Disabled Parking Bays:-"No Person shall cause or permit a vehicle to wait or to load and unload at any time in any road or length of road to which this restriction is applied except for vehicles displaying a disabled persons badge issued and displayed in accordance with the “Disabled Persons (Badges For Motor Vehicles) (England) Regulations 2000” and includes similar badges issued by other European Member States. Vehicles must be parked wholly within the parking bay marked on the carriageway. No vehicle may wait for more than 3 hours and may not return to the same length of parking bay restriction within a further consecutive period of 3 hours."
Nowt about a clock being required---same at Part 400.
Whether the Order has been amended is moot so the relevant one should be requested.
Mick


That puts it into a whole new ball game.
OP, get on the phone on Monday to Transprt and Streets department and get them to send you a copy of the relevant TRO.
https://www.leicester.gov.uk/transport-and-...ulation-orders/
Although if that page is up to date, the one MMV has pointed to is the latest smile.gif


Awesome work Mad Mick V, thankyou! cool.gif I will call them first thing on Monday and will post up any response here...
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Wretched Rectum
post Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 21:54
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I'm with mick on this. Contravention did not occur. You are accused of not displaying a "disabled person's badge" but this was displayed. You did not display a "parking disc" but this is not what you are accused of.

These Regs don't appy to disabled bays (because disabled bays are TRO specific parking bays for disabled badge holders and therefore do not rely on any parking exemption) but the definitions tend to be used. It shows that the "badge" and "disc" are separate items.

This post has been edited by Wretched Rectum: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 22:04
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hcandersen
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 10:11
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I wouldn’t risk it.

If an order is silent then it imports any statutory/regulatory meaning.

In this case, I would not be confident that an adj would carry out the type of forensic examination we see here and conclude that despite the BB holder knowing their obligations and the dubious wording of the order that references to ‘display of a BB in the relevant position’ and the 2000 regs did not capture the intent and effect of those regs and require a disc to be displayed.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 10:12
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DancingDad
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:17
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:11) *
I wouldn’t risk it.

If an order is silent then it imports any statutory/regulatory meaning.

In this case, I would not be confident that an adj would carry out the type of forensic examination we see here and conclude that despite the BB holder knowing their obligations and the dubious wording of the order that references to ‘display of a BB in the relevant position’ and the 2000 regs did not capture the intent and effect of those regs and require a disc to be displayed.



Which statute/regulation are you thinking of HCA ?
Cos I am not sure.
The Disabled Persons (Badges for Motor Vehicles) (England) Regulations 2000 does not prescribe a parking disc (time clock) and only dictates how the BB is displayed.
The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons) (England) Regulations 2000 does prescribe (and describe) the parking disc but applies to exemptions for waiting, not parking.


I agree that the bay being limited and signs showing that would suggest that a time clock should be displayed.
But signs must also reflect the TRO and if the TRO does not require a parking disc, assumptions from the signage cannot be used to penalise.
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Mad Mick V
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:38
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214033669A
The Penalty Charge Notice was issued when Mr X's car was parked in a disabled badge in Temple Fortune Lane. There was a disabled badge and clock in the car. The bay is for disabled badge who may park for up to three hours. The clock in the car was set at about 12:00. The Penalty Charge Notice was issued at 09:51. the local authority states that the car had been parked for more than three hours. I accept Mr X's evidence which is supported by a letter from his GP surgery that the car was parked for about 30 minutes. I find as a fact that the car was parked in the bay for less than three hours.

The local authority provides a copy of the Traffic Management Order. The Order states that a car parked in a disabled bay must have a disabled badge displayed. The Traffic Management Order does not refer to any requirement to display a clock. As there is no requirement to display a clock it follows that the incorrect setting of the clock does not amount to a contravention.

I allow this appeal.

----------------------------------------------------

We are not there yet-- the 2006 Order might have been amended--so we don't know if the above applies.

If the OP can't get the updated Order I would pose the question of the Council. "Please identify and quote the traffic Order which gives you power to enforce a Disabled Bay on the basis of a missing parking clock".

Mick
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Wretched Rectum
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 11:49
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the bay is a limited waiting bay but can only be used by disabled badge holder's. The 2000 regulations do not apply here because no exemption provided by them is being claimed. Like any other limited waiting bay a ceo can take a 1st observation and come back 3 hours later to see if any car is still parked. No need for a disc clock. Was a badge displayed? yes it was so contravention alleged did not occur.
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hcandersen
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 13:39
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The order’s reference to and definition of ( for the purposes of the order) ‘disabled person’ states:

disabled person” means a disabled person provided with a disabled persons blue badge issued and used in accordance with The Chronically Sick & Disabled Persons Act 1970 and The Disabled Persons (Badges For Motor Vehicles) (England) Regulations 2000.‘

My emphasis.


‘Issued and used in accordance with ..Act’ which itself refers to a whole raft of unspecified regs has apparently catch-all references to using as per regulations.

I am not convinced that, however tortuously, the definition in the order would not capture the need to display a clock because the term disabled person appears in the relevant articles.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 13:58
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 14:39) *
The order’s reference to and definition of ( for the purposes of the order) ‘disabled person’ states:

disabled person” means a disabled person provided with a disabled persons blue badge issued and used in accordance with The Chronically Sick & Disabled Persons Act 1970 and The Disabled Persons (Badges For Motor Vehicles) (England) Regulations 2000.‘

My emphasis.


‘Issued and used in accordance with ..Act’ which itself refers to a whole raft of unspecified regs has apparently catch-all references to using as per regulations.

I am not convinced that, however tortuously, the definition in the order would not capture the need to display a clock because the term disabled person appears in the relevant articles.

I can understand your concern but the TRO specifically says "except for vehicles displaying a disabled persons badge issued and displayed in accordance with the “Disabled Persons (Badges For Motor Vehicles) (England) Regulations 2000”
and says nothing on the need for a parking disc.
Those regulations do not specify a parking disc needs to be displayed. Indeed it specifically says "and includes similar badges issued by other European Member States." not all of which will include a time clock (Scotland for instance does not habitually supply a clock)
Take a comparison with limited waiting bays generally.... Parking 1 hour, No Return for 2 hours is fairly typical. No requirement for a parking clock on those.
Could actually be discriminatory to require one of a disabled person when none required in a limited waiting bay for able bodied drivers smile.gif


I am taking the simplistic view.
Neither the TRO nor the specified legislation regarding display require a time clock.
Given that, it is for the council to show what legislation applies that allows them to penalise a driver in that bay who has correctly displayed a lawful BB.
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cp8759
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 15:48
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I agree with DancingDad, a non-disabled time limited parking bay does not require a clock and just because a time-limited bay is reseed for BB holders, does not mean that such a requirement applies.

To require a blue badge holder to display a clock in a disabled bay, the TRO must include a provision to that effect, plus the signage would need to specify that a clock must be displayed and presumably the SoS would need to authorise the sign (I'm not sure there's a "clock must be displayed" sign in the TSRGD 2016).

Therefore the alleged contravention did not occur.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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