PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Northern Irish politician cuts off PPC wheelclamp, Could it be impetus for change to NI law on clamping?
anon45
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 15:47
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,062
Joined: 7 Aug 2009
Member No.: 31,007



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-42936610
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-northern-i...oving-car-clamp
https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-...-gerry-14243414

A senior Sein Fein MLA, policing spokeperson, and former Northern Ireland Policing Board representative, is under police investigation for supposed "criminal damage" for cutting off a PPC wheelclamp on private land; the fact of which is openly admitted to by Gerry Kelly, and recorded on video.

I wonder whether this high profile incident, involving a leading politician, could lead either to:
1) Northern Ireland finally falling into line with the rest of the UK by banning the abusive and much-abused practice of PPC wheelclamping (a consultation was held a while ago on this, but nothing seems to have emerged), and/ or:
2) A challenge to the perverse and per incuriam case law on 'lawful excuse' for criminal damage to PPC wheelclamps, which has been interpreted by the UK courts to mean:
a) the opposite of what section 5 of the Criminal Damage Act 1971 (on lawful excuse) actually says;
b) the opposite of what Blackstones says it means;
c) the opposite of how the same section has been interpreted in all cases, both under the Criminal Damage Act 1971 and the Malicious Damage Act 1861 that preceded it, involving damage to anything other than PPC wheelclamps (e.g. Chamberlain v Lindon: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/1998/329.html), and;
d) the opposite of how identical legislation has been interpreted in the Republic of Ireland?

Effectively, to all practical intents and purposes, the courts have unilaterally re-written the statutory defence of 'lawful excuse' to add the words "This defence applies to damage to all property other than PPC wheelclamps".

Personally, I have no time for any political party, be it Unionist or Republican, with (allegedly) close links to paramilitary/ terrorist groups, but in this specific case, I hope Mr. Kelly is convicted at first instance, only to have his conviction quashed following a subsequent appeal by case stated.

In practice, since he is a senior politician, I expect the police to quietly brush the case under the carpet.

On the other hand, with my optimistic hat on instead, perhaps it will end up being the clampers' "Boothroyd moment" in Northern lreland, as politicians spring into action to change the law to save one of their own (albeit that this may be difficult without a functioning Northern Ireland Assembly).

This post has been edited by anon45: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 17:32
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 13)
Advertisement
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 15:47
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
freddy1
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 15:50
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,758
Joined: 4 Jan 2007
Member No.: 9,897



I posted the same post . in press articles approx 30 mins ago , but it seems to have been deleted , it was posted as I went back and reviewed mt spelling
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fredd
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 15:52
Post #3


Webmaster
Group Icon

Group: Root Admin
Posts: 7,031
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
From: Wokingham, UK
Member No.: 2



QUOTE (freddy1 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 15:50) *
I posted the same post . in press articles approx 30 mins ago , but it seems to have been deleted

Compare what you posted against the post above and the Sticky at the top of the forum, and you might be able to work out why.


--------------------
Regards,
Fredd

__________________________________________________________________________
Pepipoo relies on you
to keep this site running!
Donate to Pepipoo now using your
Visa, Mastercard, debit card or PayPal account
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
anon45
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 16:38
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,062
Joined: 7 Aug 2009
Member No.: 31,007



This seems to be a major news story in Northern Ireland, with Republican politicians typically rushing to Mr. Kelly's defence, or indeed remaining silent, and Unionist politicians invariably demanding he be fired, expelled from the (dormant) Northern Irish Assembly, and jailed. It has also now been picked up by The Guardian and Sky News.

I understand that Mr. Kelly has hired a solicitor to defend himself, and I genuinely think that this could be "one to watch", potentially with wider implications for both motorists and the clamping industry.

On the subject of spelling, I seem to have spelled "Northern Irish" wrong in the thread title, and hope the moderators can fix this.

This post has been edited by anon45: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 16:40
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fredd
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 17:22
Post #5


Webmaster
Group Icon

Group: Root Admin
Posts: 7,031
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
From: Wokingham, UK
Member No.: 2



QUOTE (anon45 @ Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 16:38) *
I seem to have spelled "Northern Irish" wrong in the thread title, and hope the moderators can fix this.

Why not do it yourself? Just edit your first post (full editor, not quick edit).


--------------------
Regards,
Fredd

__________________________________________________________________________
Pepipoo relies on you
to keep this site running!
Donate to Pepipoo now using your
Visa, Mastercard, debit card or PayPal account
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
anon45
post Sun, 4 Feb 2018 - 17:32
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,062
Joined: 7 Aug 2009
Member No.: 31,007



Ah thanks, I forgot about 'full editor'.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
anon45
post Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:09
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,062
Joined: 7 Aug 2009
Member No.: 31,007



Sadly, after being interviewed by police today, Mr. Kelly has apologised and (IMO, foolishly) agreed to pay a "fine" [sic] of £150 to the clamping company, plus an additional £50 for damage to the clamp: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-42948310.

There is no legal basis for the clamping company to charge the £150 so-called "fine", and, in addition, I suspect that the £50 of supposed damage caused greatly exceeds the true cost of the damage caused. If £150 was the advertised fee for the "service" of clamp removal, then Mr. Kelly never agreed to pay for the "service", nor was it provided by the clamping firm. This applies regardless of whether he was deemed to have consented to the risk of his car being clamped.

He also claims that, prior to deciding to cut the clamp off, he phoned the clamping firm to ask for (and presumably to offer to pay for?) removal but was unable to get through. If true, this strengthens the argument for use of an immediate self-help solution, presuming that he needed to use the vehicle immediately.

As a matter of academic interest, would the interpretation of the law on "lawful excuse" as adopted by the English and Welsh courts in clamping cases, (in direct contradiction to their interpretation of the same statute as adopted in all non-clamping cases), automatically be binding on the Northern Irish courts, or would they be free to interpret the law correctly and acquit based on the statutory defence of 'lawful excuse', as contained in Article 7(2)(b) of the Criminal Damage (Northern Ireland) Order 1977, (which exactly replicates the same wording in the Criminal Damage Act 1971)?

This post has been edited by anon45: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 - 18:11
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
glasgow_bhoy
post Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 20:56
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10,421
Joined: 8 Sep 2008
Member No.: 22,424



Total shambles. He did the right thing cutting it off IMO- if I was him, I'd have cut it off and got out of the area sharpish and used personal safety as justification. He's a member of a high profile party who aren't exactly popular with one side of society over there.

Quite disappointed in him too. Hes a member of a party who have stood up for their beliefs for years, yet he gives in and pays a wheel clamping company.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 01:01
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 2,949
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



In English cases prior to the PoFA it was always mentioned that the ability to have the claim removed promptly upon an offer of payment was a highly relevant consideration to making the practice legal, the implication being that, if you were unable to get the car released because, even if you're willing to pay the release fee, there's no-one available to promptly take payment and remove the clamp, it wouldn't necessarily be unlawful to remove the clamp by force. The same logic could have been used in this case, had it not been for all the political implications.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ManxRed
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 10:01
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 8,934
Joined: 20 Aug 2008
Member No.: 21,992



His 'critics' and the press have, as usual, chosen to focus on the heinous crime he committed in parking on some hatched lines, and then reached the typical conclusion that the clampers were the good guys, protecting the innocent public from vehicles parking on hatched paintwork on the ground, and he was public enemy #1. I mean, how dare he park there? He deserves everything he gets and more.

Throw the bloody key away, I say.

rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by ManxRed: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 10:02


--------------------
Sometimes I use big words I don't understand in an effort to make myself sound more photosynthesis.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ViroBono
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 10:09
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 96
Joined: 9 Jan 2011
Member No.: 43,323



QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 20:56) *
Total shambles. He did the right thing cutting it off IMO- if I was him, I'd have cut it off and got out of the area sharpish and used personal safety as justification. He's a member of a high profile party who aren't exactly popular with one side of society over there.

Quite disappointed in him too. Hes a member of a party who have stood up for their beliefs for years, yet he gives in and pays a wheel clamping company.



If he felt he was in danger, he could have called the PSNI, who would have arrived in less time than it took him to remove the clamp, which appears to have been legally applied. Alternatively, he almost certainly still has friends from the days when he was a PIRA terrorist who would protect him.

The members of a political party are not above the law, however colourful their background.


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
glasgow_bhoy
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 17:29
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10,421
Joined: 8 Sep 2008
Member No.: 22,424



QUOTE (ViroBono @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 10:09) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 20:56) *
Total shambles. He did the right thing cutting it off IMO- if I was him, I'd have cut it off and got out of the area sharpish and used personal safety as justification. He's a member of a high profile party who aren't exactly popular with one side of society over there.

Quite disappointed in him too. Hes a member of a party who have stood up for their beliefs for years, yet he gives in and pays a wheel clamping company.



If he felt he was in danger, he could have called the PSNI, who would have arrived in less time than it took him to remove the clamp, which appears to have been legally applied. Alternatively, he almost certainly still has friends from the days when he was a PIRA terrorist who would protect him.

He could have called PSNI, but plenty of people in NI don't exactly trust public organisations like the police (hes not on their board anymore), army etc. which is more than understandable considering events in the past.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
ViroBono
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:58
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 96
Joined: 9 Jan 2011
Member No.: 43,323



QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 17:29) *
QUOTE (ViroBono @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 10:09) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Tue, 6 Feb 2018 - 20:56) *
Total shambles. He did the right thing cutting it off IMO- if I was him, I'd have cut it off and got out of the area sharpish and used personal safety as justification. He's a member of a high profile party who aren't exactly popular with one side of society over there.

Quite disappointed in him too. Hes a member of a party who have stood up for their beliefs for years, yet he gives in and pays a wheel clamping company.



If he felt he was in danger, he could have called the PSNI, who would have arrived in less time than it took him to remove the clamp, which appears to have been legally applied. Alternatively, he almost certainly still has friends from the days when he was a PIRA terrorist who would protect him.

He could have called PSNI, but plenty of people in NI don't exactly trust public organisations like the police (hes not on their board anymore), army etc. which is more than understandable considering events in the past.


I spent several years in NI, and am well aware of the issues. In my experience, it's actually a small minority who have a problem with the police, often because they are or were on the wrong side of the law - much like the rest of the UK. The vast majority of the population want nothing to do with the idiots of whatever flavour. Gerry Kelly turned to politics, along with other PIRA terrorists and supporters, when they realised that their organisation had been massively infiltrated by the security forces, and militarily defeated. The majority of people, including many of those who previously indulged in unlawful violence (on both sides), are now much more interested in moving on. Though I can see why some people might find it hard to work with their former enemies, but they've had to do it; it's not always easy, but the alternative is much worse. As it happens I've met Mr Kelly, and he is no fool; if he thought his safety was in doubt, he wouldn't have returned to the gym and then spent time cutting off the clamp by himself.

I think his cutting of the clamp was more likely due to the sort of frustration most of us would feel in that situation, and nothing to do with his politics.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
glasgow_bhoy
post Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 21:44
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 10,421
Joined: 8 Sep 2008
Member No.: 22,424



QUOTE (ViroBono @ Wed, 7 Feb 2018 - 20:58) *
I think his cutting of the clamp was more likely due to the sort of frustration most of us would feel in that situation, and nothing to do with his politics.

I don't disagree that he was probably just frustrated, but if I was in his position the security and potential to be targeted would have been going through my mind...
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Monday, 25th June 2018 - 15:58
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.