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Section 36 vs Traffic Order
cp8759
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 19:28
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Just a random thought, does anyone know the policy rationale for the distinction? Why is it that some signs require a formal legal order, while for others the highways authority can just tell a contractor to put them up and that's it?


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post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 19:28
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 19:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 19:28) *
Just a random thought, does anyone know the policy rationale for the distinction? Why is it that some signs require a formal legal order, while for others the highways authority can just tell a contractor to put them up and that's it?


You taking the mick?
s36 primary legislation TMO secondary


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cp8759
post Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 20:07
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 19:59) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 14 Nov 2019 - 19:28) *
Just a random thought, does anyone know the policy rationale for the distinction? Why is it that some signs require a formal legal order, while for others the highways authority can just tell a contractor to put them up and that's it?


You taking the mick?
s36 primary legislation TMO secondary

Sure, but why? What's the policy underlying that distinction? Why is it possible to have some signs backed by primary legislation while others are only backed by secondary legislation?

There must be a policy rationale, but it seems far from obvious to me.


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phantomcrusader
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 12:44
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There does not appear to be any immediate logic to it. For example, traffic movement directional signs 606 & 609 are subject to this direction
QUOTE
1.—(1) The sign must only be placed to indicate the effect of an Act, order, regulation, bylaw, resolution or notice which prohibits or restricts the use of the road by traffic.


but directional sign 610 is not. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/3/made
Are there any specific signs you have in mind?

Looking at the TSRGD 2016, most regulatory signs are subject to the above direction. It is mainly the advisory and information signs that are not.

This post has been edited by phantomcrusader: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 13:02
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 12:47
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QUOTE (phantomcrusader @ Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 12:44) *
There does not appear to be any obvious logic to it. For example, traffic movement directional signs 606 & 609 are subject to this
QUOTE
1.—(1) The sign must only be placed to indicate the effect of an Act, order, regulation, bylaw, resolution or notice which prohibits or restricts the use of the road by traffic.


but directional sign 610 is not. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2016/362/schedule/3/made
Are there any specific signs you have in mind?


its s36 see part 4 (1)


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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 13:58
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 12:47) *
…….
its s36 see part 4 (1)


S36(4) relates to directional signs being placed for traffic surveys... not sure where (1) is ?

TBH, on S36 signs generally, I always felt that the ones included were the ones likely to be needed to be placed in an emergency with no time to generate a TTRO.
For instance a major fire needing diversion signs to keep traffic away, cops/council need to be able to place and enforce.
Traffic surveys as above are another example.
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phantomcrusader
post Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 14:02
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 12:47) *
its s36 see part 4 (1)


So s36 requires a "lawfully placed" sign to be placed.

QUOTE
(2)A traffic sign shall not be treated for the purposes of this section as having been lawfully placed unless either—

(a)the indication given by the sign is an indication of a statutory prohibition, restriction or requirement, or

(b)it is expressly provided by or under any provision of the Traffic Acts that this section shall apply to the sign or to signs of a type of which the sign is one;

is the TSRGD 2016 one of the "Traffic Acts"?

The RTRA 1984 is and I think s.64(5) would cover it as far as the TSRGD 2016 goes.

Going back to the original question, it is odd that some signs need an order and some don't and some can be either of the two. Might be best to contact the DfT and see what they have to say.

This post has been edited by phantomcrusader: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 - 14:33
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The Rookie
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 11:11
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My immediate thought was double white lines, totally enforceable yet installed at the whim of the local highways authority with no need for an order (or even common sense in one location near me).


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cp8759
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 11:55
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That's an interesting one because on most single carriageway roads, double white lines also mean no stopping.


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yen_powell
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 12:28
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 11:11) *
My immediate thought was double white lines, totally enforceable yet installed at the whim of the local highways authority with no need for an order (or even common sense in one location near me).
I was taught that the Police have to be involved in the placing of double white lines, trained Police drivers travelling along the route to work out the speed to be used for the stopping distance so the solid lines stop/start points can be set out by two engineers on foot according to visibility between them as the road turns or rises and falls. Then they have to do the whole thing in reverse.
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cp8759
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 14:19
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QUOTE (yen_powell @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 12:28) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 11:11) *
My immediate thought was double white lines, totally enforceable yet installed at the whim of the local highways authority with no need for an order (or even common sense in one location near me).
I was taught that the Police have to be involved in the placing of double white lines, trained Police drivers travelling along the route to work out the speed to be used for the stopping distance so the solid lines stop/start points can be set out by two engineers on foot according to visibility between them as the road turns or rises and falls. Then they have to do the whole thing in reverse.

That may be good working practice but legally I'm not sure the council has to do any of that.

In fact that supports the view that the distinction is somewhat of an anomaly: For TROs the highway authority would normally consult the local police force, but for a section 36 sign they can literally send a contractor round with a bucket of paint. Seems a bit arbitrary to me.


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yen_powell
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 15:42
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 14:19) *
QUOTE (yen_powell @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 12:28) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 11:11) *
My immediate thought was double white lines, totally enforceable yet installed at the whim of the local highways authority with no need for an order (or even common sense in one location near me).
I was taught that the Police have to be involved in the placing of double white lines, trained Police drivers travelling along the route to work out the speed to be used for the stopping distance so the solid lines stop/start points can be set out by two engineers on foot according to visibility between them as the road turns or rises and falls. Then they have to do the whole thing in reverse.

That may be good working practice but legally I'm not sure the council has to do any of that.

In fact that supports the view that the distinction is somewhat of an anomaly: For TROs the highway authority would normally consult the local police force, but for a section 36 sign they can literally send a contractor round with a bucket of paint. Seems a bit arbitrary to me.
From Chapter 5 TSM
3.1.7.  It is not necessary to obtain formal authorisation for the lines because discretion in
deciding whether to use double lines or warning lines is left to traffic authorities. However, as
contravention of the prohibitory line is an endorsable offence and is subject to penalty points
(section 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988) (S9‑8‑1 and S9‑8‑2) the appropriate Commissioner of
Police or Chief Constable should always be consulted whenever it is proposed to install new
double line markings.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 18 Nov 2019 - 16:29
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Hansard?


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