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PCN 48 Stopped in a Restricted Area, Stopped in restricted area outside a school
materaz
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 20:37
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Seasons Greetings Everyone!

Got PCN 48 Stopped in a Restricted Area but not sure, whether I have grounds to appeal.
Please see attached images and share your opinion please:

My observations are:
Stopped on single yellow lane outside controlled time for 8 seconds (picked up a person)
Stopped just before (or in line) with post “No Stopping on entrance markings” signed.
Did not stop on zigzag markings visible after “No Stopping on entrance” signed post.
In a safe manner made a 3 point turn reversing into “Keep Clear” drive way (the entrance itself)

I re-visted that place to make photos and discovered newly painted zigzag markings before “No Stopping on entrance” signed post. Also, I saw barely visible older zigzag markings which were not noticed on the day of contravention.

Was it illegal 3point turn? (see video in the link below)

VIDEO:
https://youtu.be/RNSoooFoRUw

Thanks for your time!


New markings:

This post has been edited by materaz: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 21:19
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post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 20:37
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 20:47
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Can we see the PCN and the video please
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materaz
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 21:04
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https://youtu.be/RNSoooFoRUw

PCN to follow. Thanks!



This post has been edited by materaz: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:25
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stamfordman
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:14
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You've blanked the dates on the PCN. What are they?

Also, I see no time of contravention - have you blanked this too?

Doing a turn there is obviously silly but the PCN looks to be for the pick up and it seems you were on zig-zags but you say they are faded - on what date? They have since been repainted?

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:23
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materaz
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:27
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:14) *
You've blanked the dates on the PCN. What are they?

Also, I see no time of contravention - have you blanked this too?

Doing a turn there is obviously silly but the PCN looks to be for the pick up and it seems you were on zig-zags but you say they are faded - on what date? They have since been repainted?


Date of contravention 8/12/2017
Time of contravention - afternoon.

Thanks.

This post has been edited by materaz: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:29
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:34
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Re instate the date of notice and the location, adding a GSV would help. I personally see no contravention and the PCN is error strewn with enough errors to give a good chance of winning on it's own
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hcandersen
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:39
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You stopped to pick up a passenger. What happened later e.g. 3-point turn, is not relevant, subject to......

Time of contravention - afternoon. As my grandchildren might say: helpful, not.

The time of contravention in hours and minutes please.
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DancingDad
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:04
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:34) *
.......... I personally see no contravention and the PCN is error strewn with enough errors to give a good chance of winning on it's own


??
Stopped on school crossing ZZ's during hours of operation (video time 14.17 +seconds) with ZZs just about visible in video and no doubt will be clear and pristine in the historical evidence photos that the council will provide to adjudication.
Presumably at a location that OP is familiar with so would be expected to know where the ZZs were even if worn.
About the only thing against the contravention I see is the claim that the ZZs were faded. But whether or not to the point of being non compliant or inadequate?
Without some hard evidence like photos on the day, it is difficult to judge.

To me it is the PCN errors that could win, not the contravention.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:09
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:04) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:34) *
.......... I personally see no contravention and the PCN is error strewn with enough errors to give a good chance of winning on it's own


??
Stopped on school crossing ZZ's during hours of operation (video time 14.17 +seconds) with ZZs just about visible in video and no doubt will be clear and pristine in the historical evidence photos that the council will provide to adjudication.
Presumably at a location that OP is familiar with so would be expected to know where the ZZs were even if worn.
About the only thing against the contravention I see is the claim that the ZZs were faded. But whether or not to the point of being non compliant or inadequate?
Without some hard evidence like photos on the day, it is difficult to judge.

To me it is the PCN errors that could win, not the contravention.


I stand corrected, but would like to see a GSV before a comment on the condition, the photos appear to show they have been re painted
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Guest_Bogsy_*
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:20
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Is that not a single yellow line running adjacent to the school keep clear zig zag? You can stop on a yellow line to pick up passengers. Although the video to me looks as if you picked up a few cm's before the school keep clear zig zag started. I'd argue at pick up you were not stopped on or adjacent to the zig zag and the during the u turn you were not stopped either unless the brief period while changing gear is considered stopping and if so, the princilple of "de minimis" should be applied.

This post has been edited by Bogsy: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:28
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materaz
post Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:43
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:09) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:04) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:34) *
.......... I personally see no contravention and the PCN is error strewn with enough errors to give a good chance of winning on it's own


??
Stopped on school crossing ZZ's during hours of operation (video time 14.17 +seconds) with ZZs just about visible in video and no doubt will be clear and pristine in the historical evidence photos that the council will provide to adjudication.
Presumably at a location that OP is familiar with so would be expected to know where the ZZs were even if worn.
About the only thing against the contravention I see is the claim that the ZZs were faded. But whether or not to the point of being non compliant or inadequate?
Without some hard evidence like photos on the day, it is difficult to judge.

To me it is the PCN errors that could win, not the contravention.


I stand corrected, but would like to see a GSV before a comment on the condition, the photos appear to show they have been re painted


Sat view:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/The+Gre...#33;4d0.0903796
Street view:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4580822,0...3312!8i6656

Thanks!
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materaz
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:00
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:04) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:34) *
.......... I personally see no contravention and the PCN is error strewn with enough errors to give a good chance of winning on it's own


??
Stopped on school crossing ZZ's during hours of operation (video time 14.17 +seconds) with ZZs just about visible in video and no doubt will be clear and pristine in the historical evidence photos that the council will provide to adjudication.
Presumably at a location that OP is familiar with so would be expected to know where the ZZs were even if worn.
About the only thing against the contravention I see is the claim that the ZZs were faded. But whether or not to the point of being non compliant or inadequate?
Without some hard evidence like photos on the day, it is difficult to judge.

To me it is the PCN errors that could win, not the contravention.


"Without some hard evidence like photos on the day, it is difficult to judge." - Sure. But images and video received from council - can't be considered as the hard evidence to my view. They show stopping on a yellow line and 3-point turn within ZZ (though car was not stationary on ZZ as seen on video)

Thanks!

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:39) *
You stopped to pick up a passenger. What happened later e.g. 3-point turn, is not relevant, subject to......

Time of contravention - afternoon. As my grandchildren might say: helpful, not.

The time of contravention in hours and minutes please.


"The time of contravention in hours and minutes please." - the details are shown on images and video. Thanks!

QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 22:34) *
Re instate the date of notice and the location, adding a GSV would help. I personally see no contravention and the PCN is error strewn with enough errors to give a good chance of winning on it's own


Sat view:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/The+Gre...#33;4d0.0903796

Street view:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4580822,0...3312!8i6656

Thanks!
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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:01
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QUOTE (materaz @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:58) *
....."Without some hard evidence like photos on the day, it is difficult to judge." - Sure. But images and video received from council - can't be considered as the hard evidence to my view. They show stopping on a yellow line and 3-point turn within ZZ (though car was not stationary on ZZ as seen on video)

Thanks!

..............."The time of contravention in hours and minutes please." - the details are shown on images and video. Thanks!


If I can make out the ZZs in the video at the point you stopped, so can an adjudicator.

Time ON the PCN please, we can all read what is in the video.

We don't ask questions for fun, there is a reason.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:02
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materaz
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:10
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QUOTE (Bogsy @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:20) *
Is that not a single yellow line running adjacent to the school keep clear zig zag? You can stop on a yellow line to pick up passengers. Although the video to me looks as if you picked up a few cm's before the school keep clear zig zag started. I'd argue at pick up you were not stopped on or adjacent to the zig zag and the during the u turn you were not stopped either unless the brief period while changing gear is considered stopping and if so, the princilple of "de minimis" should be applied.


That is exactly my point too. Images and video received from council can't be considered as the hard evidence to my view. They show stopping on a yellow line (I stopped on a single yellow line outside of controlled time) and 3-point turn within ZZ (though car was not stationary on ZZ as seen on video)

Thanks!

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:01) *
QUOTE (materaz @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:58) *
....."Without some hard evidence like photos on the day, it is difficult to judge." - Sure. But images and video received from council - can't be considered as the hard evidence to my view. They show stopping on a yellow line and 3-point turn within ZZ (though car was not stationary on ZZ as seen on video)

Thanks!

..............."The time of contravention in hours and minutes please." - the details are shown on images and video. Thanks!


If I can make out the ZZs in the video at the point you stopped, so can an adjudicator.

Time ON the PCN please, we can all read what is in the video.

We don't ask questions for fun, there is a reason.


"We don't ask questions for fun, there is a reason." - Appreciate your time and advices, but I honestly don't understand the reason? Could you explain why you insist on Time ON the PCN to be typed? Thanks.
smile.gif
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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:15
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QUOTE (materaz @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:04) *
QUOTE (Bogsy @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:20) *
Is that not a single yellow line running adjacent to the school keep clear zig zag? You can stop on a yellow line to pick up passengers. Although the video to me looks as if you picked up a few cm's before the school keep clear zig zag started. I'd argue at pick up you were not stopped on or adjacent to the zig zag and the during the u turn you were not stopped either unless the brief period while changing gear is considered stopping and if so, the princilple of "de minimis" should be applied.


That is exactly my point too. Images and video received from council can't be considered as the hard evidence to my view. They show stopping on a yellow line (I stopped on a single yellow line outside of controlled time) and 3-point turn within ZZ (though car was not stationary on ZZ as seen on video)

Thanks!


At the moment, we have historical evidence that the ZZs stop at the hump, from July 17 via streetview.
That comes in your favour that you stopped before the ZZs.
Then there seems to be re-painted or new ZZs that extend beyond the speed bump.
If new after the event, you were not on them, if repainted, my earlier comment stands.
Then the video fails to show any ZZs except those close to the vehicle consistently, which means that the light lines across the road where you stopped could/can be interpreted as ZZs, I certainly did so.

If I am mistaken and there were no ZZ's, apologies but it has to be brought over to the council and possibly an adjudicator that this is the case.
If I can misinterpret, it can be done.

Because the video shows you stopped at 14.17 and some seconds.
If the PCN says 15.30 you win.
Even if it says 14.18, you win.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:17
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Guest_Bogsy_*
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:17
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:01) *
If I can make out the ZZs in the video at the point you stopped, so can an adjudicator.


The car stopped to pick up the passenger before the zig zag commenced


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...20023113_en_133


The straight line beginning/end marking is the widest part and touches the kerb and is clearly visible in the CCTV photos and video which can only mean it was not stopped on during passenger pick up. The U turn gear change stop must surely be de minimis.

This post has been edited by Bogsy: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:24
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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:34
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QUOTE (Bogsy @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:17) *
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:01) *
If I can make out the ZZs in the video at the point you stopped, so can an adjudicator.


The car stopped to pick up the passenger before the zig zag commenced


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/31...20023113_en_133


The straight line beginning/end marking is the widest part and touches the kerb and is clearly visible in the CCTV photos and video which can only mean it was not stopped on during passenger pick up. The U turn gear change stop must surely be de minimis.


I've been ignoring the three pointer, any stop in that is part of the manoeuvre, adjudicators accept that.
PCN time would also show if that is an issue to the council.
I reckon it's when the operator zooms in that counts.

But I am still not clear exactly where the ZZs stopped on the day and how to prove that they did.
I keep looking at the video and seem to see the ZZs over the hump and beyond, as the white van goes past is one point where there are flashes of what seems like lines??



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materaz
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:39
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:15) *
QUOTE (materaz @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:04) *
QUOTE (Bogsy @ Sat, 16 Dec 2017 - 23:20) *
Is that not a single yellow line running adjacent to the school keep clear zig zag? You can stop on a yellow line to pick up passengers. Although the video to me looks as if you picked up a few cm's before the school keep clear zig zag started. I'd argue at pick up you were not stopped on or adjacent to the zig zag and the during the u turn you were not stopped either unless the brief period while changing gear is considered stopping and if so, the princilple of "de minimis" should be applied.


That is exactly my point too. Images and video received from council can't be considered as the hard evidence to my view. They show stopping on a yellow line (I stopped on a single yellow line outside of controlled time) and 3-point turn within ZZ (though car was not stationary on ZZ as seen on video)

Thanks!


At the moment, we have historical evidence that the ZZs stop at the hump, from July 17 via streetview.
That comes in your favour that you stopped before the ZZs.
Then there seems to be re-painted or new ZZs that extend beyond the speed bump.
If new after the event, you were not on them, if repainted, my earlier comment stands.
Then the video fails to show any ZZs except those close to the vehicle consistently, which means that the light lines across the road where you stopped could/can be interpreted as ZZs, I certainly did so.

If I am mistaken and there were no ZZ's, apologies but it has to be brought over to the council and possibly an adjudicator that this is the case.
If I can misinterpret, it can be done.

Because the video shows you stopped at 14.17 and some seconds.
If the PCN says 15.30 you win.
Even if it says 14.18, you win.


"If the PCN says 15.30 you win. Even if it says 14.18, you win." Thanks! Now I understand smile.gif PCN says 14:17 on 08/12/2017
"That comes in your favour that you stopped before the ZZs." I'm afraid not. I stopped at the end of the hump - exactly in line with post signed "No waiting Mon-Fri" on my left (when stopped) On video that post isn't quite visible, but it is there - where my sun jumps into car.
Correct Street view link: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4580948,0...3312!8i6656

Thanks!

This post has been edited by materaz: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:45
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Guest_Bogsy_*
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:42
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Ask yourself, is the ZZ line in front of the car placed at 90 degrees to the kerb or 45? If it's 90 then it denotes the beginning/end of the ZZ.
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DancingDad
post Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:48
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QUOTE (materaz @ Sun, 17 Dec 2017 - 00:39) *
............ I'm afraid not. I stopped at the end of the hump - exactly in line with post signed "No waiting Mon-Fri" on my left (when stopped) On video that post isn't quite visible, but it is there - where my sun jumps into car.
Correct Street view link: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4580948,0...3312!8i6656

Thanks!


So looking at it from the camera viewpoint
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4580822,0...3312!8i6656
And you stopped by that post ?
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