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M25 smart Motorway
fozzz
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:14
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So i went down the m25 smart motorway today- there was a restriction of 40mph on the overhead gantry and matrix signs on the side of the road

Next gantry overhead speed signs all switched off (Everyone started doing 60-70mph again) - matrix sign side of road was also off and one after that also off then overhead gantry was off again, then the next overhead gantry said national speed limit

So question is, was it still 40mph while the matrix signs are off or is it 40mph untill the national speed limit sign on the gantry

Reason i ask is because i started doing 55-70mph with everyone else thinking it was over

This post has been edited by fozzz: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 18:08
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post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:14
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666
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:17
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Any speed limit applies until you pass an NSl sign or a different limit. Smart motorway limits are no different.
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fozzz
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:21
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I was under the impression they had to repeat to be enforced 😕

What would i be looking at if i was flashed 60mph in 40mph motorway restriction
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Jlc
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:49
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QUOTE (fozzz @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:21) *
What would i be looking at if i was flashed 60mph in 40mph motorway restriction

3 points £100.


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PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
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The Rookie
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:52
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As long as you are adequately guided as to the speed limit it can be enforced, as you well knew you had passed a 40 and no other limit sign then that seems to be the very definition of adequate, so yes the limit could be enforced.

However the cameras only work to the limit displayed on their own gantry (so no display would be a 70), so to our understanding you’ll be fine as you don’t seemed to have been caught by other mechanism.


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fozzz
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 18:10
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:52) *
As long as you are adequately guided as to the speed limit it can be enforced, as you well knew you had passed a 40 and no other limit sign then that seems to be the very definition of adequate, so yes the limit could be enforced.

However the cameras only work to the limit displayed on their own gantry (so no display would be a 70), so to our understanding you’ll be fine as you don’t seemed to have been caught by other mechanism.


Great, just wasnt sure if ghe hadec3 used the board or received the speed direct from Highway Agency

QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:49) *
QUOTE (fozzz @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:21) *
What would i be looking at if i was flashed 60mph in 40mph motorway restriction

3 points £100.


Would i get offered this between 60-70mph or any chancd of a course (Thats if there was a camera, im not 100% sure ) - im sure i was below 65mph

This post has been edited by fozzz: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 18:22
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Jlc
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 18:12
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In a 40mph, enforcement would being at 46mph, a course offer upto 53mph and a fixed penalty up to 65mph. Court after that.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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fozzz
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 18:23
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 18:12) *
In a 40mph, enforcement would being at 46mph, a course offer upto 53mph and a fixed penalty up to 65mph. Court after that.


Thank you for the advice, hoping im ok then, im sure i was below 65mph and with the gantry being off and the matrix im hoping that also means that camera would not enforce (that if there was even a camera there)
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mickR
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 20:48
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QUOTE (fozzz @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:14) *
So i went down the m25 smart motorway today- there was a restriction of 40mph on the overhead gantry and matrix signs on the side of the road

Next gantry overhead speed signs all switched off (Everyone started doing 60-70mph again) - matrix sign side of road was also off and one after that also off then overhead gantry was off again, then the next overhead gantry said national speed limit

So question is, was it still 40mph while the matrix signs are off or is it 40mph untill the national speed limit sign on the gantry

Reason i ask is because i started doing 55-70mph with everyone else thinking it was over


An extremely common occurrence round north section of 25
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fozzz
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 20:54
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Question all

If a gantry is showing a speed to follow - example 60mph inforced in a red circle

Then the next 4-5 gantries matrix signs are blank and not displaying the speed, will the Hadec Camera still clock you if going over 60mph or will it only enforce what live on the screen

If it does inforce it, will there be cctv backing up that the matrix was on at the time?

Or can the Hadec only enforce the speed thats displayed on the Gantry that the cameras attached to?
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fozzz
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 20:55
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QUOTE (mickR @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 20:48) *
QUOTE (fozzz @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:14) *
So i went down the m25 smart motorway today- there was a restriction of 40mph on the overhead gantry and matrix signs on the side of the road

Next gantry overhead speed signs all switched off (Everyone started doing 60-70mph again) - matrix sign side of road was also off and one after that also off then overhead gantry was off again, then the next overhead gantry said national speed limit

So question is, was it still 40mph while the matrix signs are off or is it 40mph untill the national speed limit sign on the gantry

Reason i ask is because i started doing 55-70mph with everyone else thinking it was over


An extremely common occurrence round north section of 25


What do you mean by this, its the 1st time ive been on the m25 And i was heading towards london

This post has been edited by fozzz: Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 20:56
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666
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 22:39
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QUOTE (fozzz @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 20:55) *
QUOTE (mickR @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 20:48) *
QUOTE (fozzz @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:14) *
So i went down the m25 smart motorway today- there was a restriction of 40mph on the overhead gantry and matrix signs on the side of the road

Next gantry overhead speed signs all switched off (Everyone started doing 60-70mph again) - matrix sign side of road was also off and one after that also off then overhead gantry was off again, then the next overhead gantry said national speed limit

So question is, was it still 40mph while the matrix signs are off or is it 40mph untill the national speed limit sign on the gantry

Reason i ask is because i started doing 55-70mph with everyone else thinking it was over


An extremely common occurrence round north section of 25


What do you mean by this, its the 1st time ive been on the m25 And i was heading towards london

The M25 doesn’t go towards London, it goes round it! Where were you exactly?
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mjwbase
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 23:05
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the government seems to contradict itself on this, from https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-drive-on...e-speed-limits:

Quote: A speed limit displayed inside a red circle is legally enforceable. If you go over the speed limit, you’re breaking the law and could receive a fine. We’ll let you know when it no longer applies by setting the national speed limit sign. If no speed limits are displayed then the national speed limit applies. When speed limits are displayed, they remain in place until notified that they have ended, or a different speed limit is displayed.

They are say both (a) if a lower speed is displayed it is enforceable until a national speed limit sign is displayed and (b) it no speed limit is displayed then national speed limit applies - these two are mutually exclusive!

The M25 regularly has sections where there is a lower speed limit displayed, but NO national speed limit signs afterwards just blank signs - therefore if option A above applies you can have the situation where multiple speed limits are in force at the same time, eg:

Car 1- reaches a gantry showing 40mph signs and slows to 40mph - never sees a sign displaying a higher limit and thus must continue obey the 40 limit
Car 2 - reaches the same gantry 5 minutes later and the 40mph signs are no longer displayed so can continue at 70mph
You thus have a situation where both 40mph and 70mph speed limits exist at the same time on the same road.

Therefore the law should either be (a) an unlit sign indicates that the speed limit IS the national limit without requiring the display of a national speed limit sign, or (b) the system needs to be changed that all signs MUST display a national speed limit sign unless they are showing a lower limit.

Thoughts?
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cp8759
post Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 23:14
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I often encounter this scenario and think that I should complain to Highways England that the NSL signs were not on after the end of the mandatory limit. By the time I get home, I don't care any more.


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The Rookie
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 05:30
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QUOTE (mjwbase @ Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 00:05) *
We’ll let you know when it no longer applies by setting the national speed limit sign.

Thoughts?

Thought - the relevant bit.

I'd suggest it's not a contradiction so much as badly worded, the clear intent (to me) is that if you see no signs at all then the limit is the NSL (like, well, on every other road other than restricted roads).

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 05:30


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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fozzz
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 06:14
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QUOTE (666 @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 22:39) *
QUOTE (fozzz @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 20:55) *
QUOTE (mickR @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 20:48) *
QUOTE (fozzz @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 17:14) *
So i went down the m25 smart motorway today- there was a restriction of 40mph on the overhead gantry and matrix signs on the side of the road

Next gantry overhead speed signs all switched off (Everyone started doing 60-70mph again) - matrix sign side of road was also off and one after that also off then overhead gantry was off again, then the next overhead gantry said national speed limit

So question is, was it still 40mph while the matrix signs are off or is it 40mph untill the national speed limit sign on the gantry

Reason i ask is because i started doing 55-70mph with everyone else thinking it was over


An extremely common occurrence round north section of 25


What do you mean by this, its the 1st time ive been on the m25 And i was heading towards london

The M25 doesn’t go towards London, it goes round it! Where were you exactly?


Sorry, to update that yes i was going around london and then left m25 to join m11


So are we all agreeing if Gantry was 40 mph

And the next matrix / Gantry signs are off then NSL applies again or are we saying it stays at 40 mph until a Gantry Physically displays the NSL Sign

QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 23:14) *
I often encounter this scenario and think that I should complain to Highways England that the NSL signs were not on after the end of the mandatory limit. By the time I get home, I don't care any more.


Question is do you stick to whats speed was on the previous Gantry or go NSL as there no speed displayed to enforce?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 06:29
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QUOTE (fozzz @ Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 07:14) *
So are we all agreeing if Gantry was 40 mph

And the next matrix / Gantry signs are off then NSL applies again or are we saying it stays at 40 mph until a Gantry Physically displays the NSL Sign

The law is clear, it stays as a 40 limit until you reach an NSL sign.

The lower limit would only be enforceable if a court agreed that a driver had been given adequate guidance (a subjective requirement as what is or is not 'adequate' depends on a number of factors), so in my OPINION for 1 or 2 gantries it would still be enforceable, 3 becomes debatable, in addition if there is an on slip with no lower limit on the slip road it would make it much harder to enforce anyway as a significant number of drivers would have a good defence.

What the legal limit is and whether or not it is enforceable are two different questions, they are not a single question.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 06:30


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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The Rookie
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 06:32
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See your other post, no need for a new one. Most the Qs have already been answered once in there.

There is no CCTV, HADECS3 takes an extra photo when it photographs an alleged offence showing the gantry and the car passing underneath it to show what the gantry was showing at the time.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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fozzz
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 06:34
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 06:29) *
QUOTE (fozzz @ Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 07:14) *
So are we all agreeing if Gantry was 40 mph

And the next matrix / Gantry signs are off then NSL applies again or are we saying it stays at 40 mph until a Gantry Physically displays the NSL Sign

The law is clear, it stays as a 40 limit until you reach an NSL sign.

The lower limit would only be enforceable if a court agreed that a driver had been given adequate guidance (a subjective requirement as what is or is not 'adequate' depends on a number of factors), so in my OPINION for 1 or 2 gantries it would still be enforceable, 3 becomes debatable, in addition if there is an on slip with no lower limit on the slip road it would make it much harder to enforce anyway as a significant number of drivers would have a good defence.

What the legal limit is and whether or not it is enforceable are two different questions, they are not a single question.



Ok so if they had a Hadec 3 attached and the 2-3 Gantry in question where off, would the Hadec 3 still be lockef in at 40mph or would it be 70mph as the matrix are not on

Also how does the hadec3 pull its speed settings - is it via the matrix board thats live on the Gantry or can they be set with the gantry still not displaying
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The Rookie
post Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 06:36
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Already answered.

QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 9 Feb 2020 - 18:52) *
However the cameras only work to the limit displayed on their own gantry (so no display would be a 70), so to our understanding you’ll be fine as you don’t seemed to have been caught by other mechanism.


This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 - 06:36


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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