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Harleyfxd
post Tue, 8 Jan 2008 - 19:46
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Hi All,

Anyone with advice with this.

I was done for doing 35 in a 30,surely by what I have found out i.e a leeway of 10% + 2mph,I was only doing 30 mph. As in 46 in a 40,57 in a 50.

Much appreciated.
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Just a few things that have happened to myself...

I was driving the bosses Range Rover out of Maidenhead,doing 70 on a 40 dualcarriageway,the boss got the summons and to get me off ask to see the photographic evidence,they wrote back saying the case was dropped because the computer or something was down that day.......now how many people got caught and paid the fine and had points on their licence that day...makes you wonder?
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About 10 years ago,got done,deffinately me,same day,time etc,had the summons and 1 digit was wrong on the number plate,on the form it said are you the owner of the vehicle registration etc,filled in the form saying NO.(well I was'nt)Never heard again.

Thanks for reading.
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post Tue, 8 Jan 2008 - 19:46
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nemo
post Tue, 8 Jan 2008 - 19:54
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QUOTE (Harleyfxd @ Tue, 8 Jan 2008 - 19:46) *
I was done for doing 35 in a 30,surely by what I have found out i.e a leeway of 10% + 2mph,I was only doing 30 mph.

Doesn't work like that, I'm afraid..

The ACPO suggested minimum enforcement threshold is at 10% plus 2mph above the posted limit. A detected 35mph in a 30mph limit is thus within the range of 'guideline' speeds for a fixed penalty.
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Harleyfxd
post Wed, 9 Jan 2008 - 08:19
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Thanks for that ,but still confused.

How is it worked out then? Taking off/adding the 10% +2mph.

1/ A vehicles speedo at 30 would get a reading of 25.

2/ A vehicles speedo at 30 would get a reading of 35.

To be safe driving in a 30,does the speedo have to read at 35mph or 25mph?

What it was,I pulled out onto the West Wycombe road,which I thought was a 40 limit,(but no a 30 limit)yes they had lights,me doing a bit more,saw the camera and slowed down to 40 thinking I was okay.
My speedo was reading 40,so the 10% +2,would make out I was doing 46.Taking that off,why are they not doing me for 40mph instead of 35mph.
My speedo at 40 - the 10% + 2 would read 34.

Thanks.
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nemo
post Wed, 9 Jan 2008 - 09:04
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QUOTE (Harleyfxd @ Wed, 9 Jan 2008 - 08:19) *
How is it worked out then? Taking off/adding the 10% +2mph.

The 'leeway' is with respect to the posted limit. It is not relative to your true vehicle speed or whatever speed may be indicated on your speedometer..

For instance, the minimum suggested enforcement thresholds are at a true vehicle speed of posted limit plus 10% plus 2mph - 35 in a 30, 46 in a 40, 57 in a 50 etc etc.

What your speedometer may or may not be reading at the time is of little relevance, other than the fact that it should not display less than the true vehicle speed.

QUOTE (Harleyfxd @ Wed, 9 Jan 2008 - 08:19) *
1/ A vehicles speedo at 30 would get a reading of 25.

2/ A vehicles speedo at 30 would get a reading of 35.

??

Speedometers are not permitted to display a speed which is less than the true vehicle speed. Nor are speedometer 'errors' fixed at 10% plus 2mph.

QUOTE (Harleyfxd @ Wed, 9 Jan 2008 - 08:19) *
To be safe driving in a 30,does the speedo have to read at 35mph or 25mph?

Iffy speed measurements aside, to be absolutely 'safe' whilst driving in a 30mph, your true vehicle speed should be 30mph or less. I wouldn't know what speed would be shown on your vehicle's speedometer at a true 30mph, other than it should not be less than 30mph.

QUOTE (Harleyfxd @ Wed, 9 Jan 2008 - 08:19) *
My speedo was reading 40,so the 10% +2,would make out I was doing 46.Taking that off,why are they not doing me for 40mph instead of 35mph.

That's some weird logic..

If your speedo was reading 40mph and you were accused of travelling at 35mph, then this would suggest that your speedo has an error of about +14% at this vehicle speed.

This post has been edited by nemo: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 - 11:31
Reason for edit: schoolboy typo..
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andy_foster
post Wed, 9 Jan 2008 - 11:21
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If you admit to being the driver in a timely manner, you will be offered a speed awareness course - £74 and no points. Take it.


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Harleyfxd
post Thu, 14 Feb 2008 - 22:26
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I was flashed on the 23rd Dec 07........ I live on a farm which has 7 flats on it.I am the RK and my V5 has my name and full address on it ie John Smith,Smile Cottage,Kenbys Farm,etc.But it should read Kenbees Farm.Never got around to change,cos it sounds the same and may get lost at the DVLA.(Obviously not my real name or address just an example)
Now the first NIP was sent on the 4th Jan to Kenbees Farm,with no name on it.Now the boss opened it,cos it was his mail and gave it to me.I ignored it and the S172,had a reminder to fill in the S172,sent on the 11th Feb,again no name just handed it to me.On the top of the form it says DO NOT PASS THIS FORM TO ANOTHER PERSON TO COMPLETE.
Now do I..
A/ Give it back to the boss to fill in and send it back with my name on it.And wait for the NIP in my name and say the 14 days have expired.
B/ Fill it in myself and say I did not recieve the first one with my name and address on it and the 14 days have expired.Will the boss get in trouble for not filling in the first one.
C/ If my name is not on the S172 (DRIVER/KEEPER STATEMENT)why should someone
else be prosecuted.
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Wolfie_17
post Thu, 14 Feb 2008 - 23:04
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That's a strange one!
Are you certain that the V5 has your name on it? Its odd that they wouldn't include your name if it is recorded.

So the first NIP came addressed to the farm only, even tho its mis spelled.

As far as I can see you don't have to do anything if you haven't had an NIP in your name, I'm sure others on here will have a much better idea.
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Harleyfxd
post Fri, 15 Feb 2008 - 05:43
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Address on my V5

JOHN SMITH,
SMILE COTTAGE,
KENBYS FARM, (wrong spelling)
HARE LANE,
SOMEWHERE.
NOWHERE,
postcode.

NIP sent to,

KENBEES FARM, (correct spelling)
HARE LANE,
SOMEWHERE,
NOWHERE,
postcode.

If I ignore it and I have to go to court,will the boss be in trouble for the S172,and on oath I can not say I did not recieve it..as I did by hand,only say I did not recieve anything addressed to me.




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7159keith
post Fri, 15 Feb 2008 - 08:30
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Tough one, maybe some of the more experienced members could help.

You say your boss opened it, so is your company registered at the address? Technically your boss is required to give info in his power to give i.e. he should name you, but as the NIP seems to be addressed neither to a company or a person who is the target of the S172 request?????

One point to note, are all the details on your example address fictional? Those from the dark side that like to lurk on here for info can actually read and do sometimes connect info to cases.

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Harleyfxd
post Fri, 15 Feb 2008 - 09:03
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I work for him as a farm hand and live on the farm.And yes the address is fictional just made up the word kenbees/kenbys to sound the same.Cheers for that!

The secretary opened it,but I suppose technicaly he is the owner,so responsible.

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7159keith
post Fri, 15 Feb 2008 - 09:14
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If he does not reply "giving any information in his power to give". He is committing a S172 offence. He should nominate you as the driver just inside the 28 day limit and when you have a NIP with your name on it come back and use the NIP wizard for members to advise.

If you get on very well with your boss and he is up for being awkward he could reply nominating you in a letter with their blank form attached. That is quite legal and just makes their job a little harder. If they then send him NIP reminders he can then ignore them and this wastes more time (good for you).
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Harleyfxd
post Fri, 15 Feb 2008 - 19:20
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Found this if it is any good..the registered keeper,not Joe blogs who lives down the road,should fill out the S172.If the boss fills it in and I get a NIP in my name,they would be using the slip rule(below) but as I did'nt receive the orginal NIP in my name (RK)within 14 days.
Under the provisions of Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, the person who is registered as the keeper of the vehicle has a legal obligation to provide the police with the name of the person who was driving their vehicle at the time of the alleged motoring offence.


There is a "slip rule" that allows the court to modify small errors (such as name/address of the keeper) due to typographical mistakes. Serious errors cannot be modified, and will invalidate the NIP.

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Pikachu
post Fri, 15 Feb 2008 - 21:14
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The "slip rule" as such doesn't apply to NIPs. However errors in NIPs have to be actively misleading before they invalidate the NIP... Missing the name off could be enough. BUT if the DVLA supplied the details the police have used then the NIP will not be invalid. If Kenbees Farm is a legal entity then your boss should be replying giving what information is in his power to give.

(You should be looking into changing the wrong details on the register anyway - it will count against your credibility as the courts are beginning to see more and more crooked people deliberately registering slightly wrong details. I am not saying you have done this but you don't want the hassle of being associated with them)
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Harleyfxd
post Fri, 15 Feb 2008 - 21:37
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - December 2007
Date of the NIP: - 9 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 11 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - A40 WEST WYCOMBE ROAD,HIGH WYCOMBE
Was the NIP addressed to you? - No
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 3
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - NOT MY NAME ON THE ADDRESS,BUT CORRECT ON THE V5,SO WAS GIVEN TO ME BY HAND.IGNORED THE FIRST AND RECEIVED REMINDER ON THE 11/02/08,STILL NOT MY NAME ON IT,AGAIN HANDED TO ME.NO S172 SENT SO FAR.

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 21:37:59 +0000
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Harleyfxd
post Sat, 16 Feb 2008 - 13:41
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Hope to get more response with this.

Right then I do not know how this works,but,my boss bought me a car,and named me as the RK,which my name is on the V5 (on top it says "PLEASE NOTE THE REGISTERED KEEPER IS NOT NECESSARY THE VEHICLE'S LEGAL OWNER")
As I was done for speeding 23/12/07 the NIP was sent to the name of the farm,not his name,I ignored it untill the 11/02/08 the reminder came,which he gave me.I handed it back for him to sign and send in the S172 with my name.

What I have been reading on here links etc,the NIP has to be sent to the RK,(true or false)which it was'nt,so surely the 14 days to send the NIP to the RK is definately up.
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saracengb
post Sat, 16 Feb 2008 - 22:16
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As a few of our more experienced/learned members have already commented on this incident I'd like to add my view - not sure if it's the right one but I think if the Name of the RK is not on a NIP then surely that invalidates the NIP?

If the details held on the DVLA computer carry the name and address (albeit slightly mis-spelled) then there's no reason for the scammers not to put this significant detail on the NIP either.

I know the registration would be on the NIP - or should be - but the NIP isn't sent to a vehicle it's a person.

Surely if you write to the scammers at this point and say there is no name on the NIP then if they try to re-issue a corrected one it's invalid due to time out?

Again this is my view on the situation and doesn't necessarily represent how the law will see things unsure.gif

I'd take the advice given above re the V5 btw and get it fixed ASAP.
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andy_foster
post Sat, 16 Feb 2008 - 22:40
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QUOTE (saracengb @ Sat, 16 Feb 2008 - 22:16) *
not sure if it's the right one but I think if the Name of the RK is not on a NIP then surely that invalidates the NIP?


A NIP must be served on either the driver or the registered keeper within 14 days of the alleged offence, unless it was not possible with reasonable diligence for the scammers to ascertain the driver or RK's details in time to do so.

In my experience, it is not possible for TVP's FPSU to exercise any form of diligence in any circumstances, but that's another issue.

Basically, if the DVLA gave the scammers incomplete or incorrect information, then the 14 day rule does not apply at all.
If however, either because they employ staff who failed the aptitude test for McDonalds, or for any other reason, TVP received the correct information but failed to properly address the notice, no-one can be convicted of the substantive speeding allegation.

It is generally considered that the 14 day rule does not apply to the requirement to provide the driver's details (or such information that the addressee has that might lead to the identification of the driver if the addressee is not the person keeping the vehicle).


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saracengb
post Sun, 17 Feb 2008 - 00:32
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Thanks Andy biggrin.gif

Just seemed too obvious so I had to ask the question.
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Harleyfxd
post Mon, 18 Feb 2008 - 13:17
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Thanks for the replies.

I am no legal expert,but what I can work out is:- The NIP + S172 has to be addressed to the RK..on top of the form it states in bold letters DRIVER/KEEPER STATEMENT. And these are sent out on the basis of the data kept at the DVLA.

The questions on the form are for the keeper to answer,not Joe Public.If it was for anyone to fill in,it should say to whom it may concern etc,if you are not the keeper,but knows who it is, please pass this notice on.

So as the NIP was not sent to myself the RK,I am going to ask the boss to fill in part 4 to say " I am not the RK and I do not know who was driving at the time"
He will not be lying.

Ant thoughts about going down this road.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 19 Feb 2008 - 11:11
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The law says he has to give any info in his power to give, he knows you own the car, therefore he is obliged to tell them, not telling a lie is not the same as telling the truth after all!

Simon


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