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court appearance outcome for F2F
Samuk80
post Tue, 16 Feb 2016 - 19:13
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Hi, recieved a summons today, to appear in court for faili get to identify the driver of a speeding offence that happened last july. Included in the paperwork is a copy of the NiP they sent last July and a reminder in August. I did not receive these. Sure everyone say that, but I have not points on my license so would have just taken it. It is known there is post problems in my area. I live on an estate just on edge of a village, and many residents complain that they haven't received items or letters they ve been expecting. Really don't know what to do. Happy to take responsibility for the speeding but not happy to say I'm guilty when I didn't receive the NiP. Any advice would be very warmly welcomed...


Apologies for the typos, shaking hand and dodgy tablet keyboard.
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post Tue, 16 Feb 2016 - 19:13
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Jlc
post Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 15:50
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QUOTE (Samuk80 @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 15:47) *
Just another thought, would it be helpful to let the cps know that I have a defense for the 172 (I know it's not a solid defense by any means), of course doing very respectfully a and contrite. My thinking being they would be more inclined to take the plea, if they think I have a chance of a case for the 172,

Indeed, that adds weight to the 'plea bargain' as they'd rather take an 'easy' guilty to the underlying offence than a trial on the s172 where there's no guarantee they'll win.

In regards to the s172 itself they can be won and a lot depends on the credibility of yourself and any 'proof'.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 15:52
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You turn up on the day early, ask the usher (chap/ess with a clipboard) to point out the prosecutor for your case, speak to them, explain you didn't get the S172 but are happy to plead guilty to an out of time speeding if they drop the S172, but you'll contest the S172 if you have to. If they agree it will be sorted in the court when you go in.

If you get sentenced for the S172 they won't give you a short ban instead of 6 points (and I fail to see that it helps much), you have the option of pleading guilty or pleading not guilty, do the former and you'll be sentenced straight away. Plead not guilty and the case will be adjourned and a trial date set and then you can prepare your defence.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Samuk80
post Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 15:57
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"A case" does not sound promising. But then I know there are no guarantees and I am trying to find something to make myself less scared.

Thanks all again.

Rookie, my thinking in terms of a short ban is a few weeks ban would have me driving quicker than if I had to apply for my provisional again, resit the tests etc. But understood it is fixed.

I'm definitely going for the plea. Then if doesn't go to plan, I have no idea....

This post has been edited by Samuk80: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 15:53
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southpaw82
post Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 16:35
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 15:49) *
QUOTE (Samuk80 @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 15:27) *
I guess the same goes for asking for a short term ban instead of the 6 pts then


The penalty for FtF is 6 points. No option of a ban.


Any offence carrying obligatory endorsement carries the option of a ban in lieu of points.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Jlc
post Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 16:51
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 16:35) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 15:49) *
QUOTE (Samuk80 @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 15:27) *
I guess the same goes for asking for a short term ban instead of the 6 pts then


The penalty for FtF is 6 points. No option of a ban.


Any offence carrying obligatory endorsement carries the option of a ban in lieu of points.


QUOTE
Discretionary disqualification
10. Whenever an offender is convicted of an endorsable offence or of taking a vehicle without consent,
the court has a discretionary power to disqualify instead of imposing penalty points. The individual
offence guidelines above indicate whether the offence is endorsable and the number or range of penalty
points it carries.


...but anecdotally at least this doesn't appear to be used frequently. And indeed, there's guidance that it shouldn't be used to avoid revocation/disqualification (either by totting or New Drivers Act)

And the New Drivers Act seems to be pertinent here?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 16:53


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Samuk80
post Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 16:54
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Really? So an option would be possible, eady guilty and ask for a ban instead of points then? If this is the case what sort of ban, I was hoping to ask for 14 days? Or is that taking the proverbial......
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AntonyMMM
post Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 17:03
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You won't get a ban for FtF - you will get 6 points and a revocation.

Go for the plea bargain.
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Gan
post Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 17:09
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FTF is such a nasty conviction that you should always plead Not Guilty if you have the slightest hope of success.

The fine is the least of the costs because it can hammer your insurance for the next five years

Insurance companies wonder what you must have done to make six points (and in your case the revocation) plus a typical £500 fine your best option
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Jlc
post Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 17:28
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QUOTE (Samuk80 @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 16:54) *
Really? So an option would be possible, eady guilty and ask for a ban instead of points then? If this is the case what sort of ban, I was hoping to ask for 14 days? Or is that taking the proverbial......

The tide is against you. I'm not aware of any s172 conviction on here that's seen a ban instead of 6 points. Also, guidance says they shouldn't use ban's to prevent the normal course of events such as totting or new driver revocation.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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I am Weasel
post Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 17:50
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Post #22 is your best course of action. The chances are very good (based on anecdotal evidence) that the prosecutor will accept a guilty plea to the speeding in return fo dropping the FtF charge. Make sure that you tell the prosecutor that you wil only plead guilty to speeding IF they drop the FtF
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peterguk
post Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 17:51
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 16:35) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 15:49) *
QUOTE (Samuk80 @ Tue, 22 Mar 2016 - 15:27) *
I guess the same goes for asking for a short term ban instead of the 6 pts then


The penalty for FtF is 6 points. No option of a ban.


Any offence carrying obligatory endorsement carries the option of a ban in lieu of points.


Thanks.


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Samuk80
post Tue, 29 Mar 2016 - 17:00
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Hello All, I wanted to update you all on my court appearance today.

I followed advice - turned up early (V early) suited and booted and shocked to see the state that some people appear in. Anyway, the Court Clark/Usher was in a reception area behind a glass screen and he asked how I was planning to plead. I said that I was not sure and explained that I had been advised that it may be possible to speak to the prosecutor before my case was heard. He said he didnt think so but would let him know when he arrived.

About 20 minutes later a gentle man called my name and asked me to follow him into the court (empty at this point). He introduced himself as the prosecutor. I explained my situation about not receiving the NIP, that I am sure he hears this daily and explained my reasons why. I asked if he would be willing to drop the 172 if I pleaded guilty to the speeding. He said normally this is no issue, and the normal way of things as the speeding is normally listed on the summons as an alternative to the F2F. He said in my case as it was not listed as it was out of time, he would apply to the bench to request that they re lay the speeding charge but he said they were no guarantees. I thanked him and waited my turn. My name was called, I went in, stood in my spot answered the preliminary questions, name address etc. When they read the charge, the prosecutor stood. Explained that he had spoken with me and asked them to re lay the charge of speeding. He did not mention the mail issues, but said that as they are aware it is normal for the speeding to be on the summons as well as an alternative but as Lincs police did not put this to the court until 5 months and 28 days, it was not possible and it would be unfair that I dont have this opportunity of an alternative, through their fault not mine - which I thought was a pretty generous thing to say.

The magistrates were very happy with this, agreed and when I was asked if I had anything to say, I was contrite and apologised for taking up the courts time, that I realised driving was a privilege not a right, (they all nodded). I then left with 3 pts, £290 fine (185 for speeding, 85 crt costs and 20 victim charge), and even a thank you from the magistrates for treating the court with respect. Most importantly my job intact as my license wasnt revoked.

Thank you all Rookie, Logician, Jlc and everyone else who advised,I amvery grateful biggrin.gif Anyone reading this, listen to the advice given!!!
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BaggieBoy
post Tue, 29 Mar 2016 - 17:04
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Why start a new thread? You should have just updated the existing one here.

Edit: I see you updated the thread anyway, so not sure why the new one was started...confused.

This post has been edited by BaggieBoy: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 - 17:06
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peterguk
post Tue, 29 Mar 2016 - 17:04
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Press "report" and ask a mod to merge with your original thread:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=104895&hl=


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Samuk80
post Tue, 29 Mar 2016 - 17:11
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Done as requested -
I just wanted to update on the outcome as I read on another thread this is appreciated and doesnt alway happen. Anyway apologies - it was done in error, not concentrating.
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Logician
post Tue, 29 Mar 2016 - 18:21
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QUOTE (Samuk80 @ Tue, 29 Mar 2016 - 17:11) *
Done as requested - I just wanted to update on the outcome as I read on another thread this is appreciated and doesnt alway happen. Anyway apologies - it was done in error, not concentrating.


Thank you for coming back, this is always appreciated and particularly useful in cases out of the usual run such as yours in respect of getting the speeding charge brought in for the purposes of the plea bargain. All credit to you, you obviously took on board the advice, handled the situation well, impressed the court and achieved success.



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Jlc
post Tue, 29 Mar 2016 - 18:24
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icon_thumleft.gif


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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