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Should you wait in hatchings to turn right?, Council say... maybe
notmeatloaf
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 10:39
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Bit of advice needed.

The council have recently remarked a junction on my commute where you have to turn right around a blind bend from this

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6398665,-...3312!8i6656

to this (i.e. break in hatchings removed)



At first I thought it was a mistake so emailed the council but they said

QUOTE
I have discussed the situation with my manager, there is an outstanding order for the hatching to be refurbished at which time the hatching through the junction will be made continous, vehicles (including cyclists) should not enter the area unless it is necessary and they can see that it is safe to do so.


So, have they screwed up? If you wish to turn right here is it safe & necessary to wait in the hatchings, or should you wait in the lane and have reduced visibility because of the bend?

A couple of people have suggested going further around the corner and turning there but having tried it people start accelerating out and, on a push bike without brake lights tend not to expect you to turn at that point.

I am tending towards waiting in the hatchings but people coming around the corner from the other direction tend to cut the corner, and I wonder whether insurance companies would drag their feet if you were knocked off whilst waiting to turn right.

(The most annoying part in all of this is this route is one of the council's "super routes", top priority cycle route, but they have steadily made the junction worse for cyclists.)
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post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 10:39
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The Rookie
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 11:06
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I'd be waiting in the hatched area, if you are turning right it is clearly necesary and I would suggest safe to do so, it may be that they make the boundary solid to prevent right turns though (but that wouldn't tally with the restriction you quote).

I'd also be speaking to my local councillor.


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Redivi
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 11:56
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I would wait in the hatched area as necessary for visibility
Any vehicle cutting the corner would still be automatically at fault

Hatched lines bordered by dotted lines create a lot of legal uncertainty especially the definition of "necessary"
I remember a thread where it was discussed whether it meant that the manoevre itself was necessary or just the crossing of the lines to complete it
The context was overtaking

I was quite pleased yesterday driving near Louth to see, near the end of such a hatched section, a set of "return to lane" arrows before the start of a solid line
Why would the arrows be there if it wasn't permissible to overtake ?
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Fredd
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 12:48
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 11:56) *
Any vehicle cutting the corner would still be automatically at fault

Well, I suppose that would make a change from the usual platitudes you find on a tombstone.


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peterguk
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 12:52
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I would not wait in the hatched area. The hatched area is there for a good reason.

Not necessary to enter them apart from crossing them as part of the turn.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 12:53


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DancingDad
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 13:46
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 12:52) *
I would not wait in the hatched area. The hatched area is there for a good reason.

Not necessary to enter them apart from crossing them as part of the turn.

A lot depends on the usual speed for the road, I'm assuming 30 given the chicanes before and after.
Good visibility towards the bend but a little blind coming the other way.
I'd not use the hatching in a car, IMO less chance of being smacked from behind then if someone cuts the corner
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 15:06
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If you had a head on collision could an insurance company argue that it was de facto not safe though as both of you were in an area where neither of you had priority? Or is "safe" a judgement that doesn't change whether or not you collided?
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DancingDad
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 16:42
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 15:06) *
If you had a head on collision could an insurance company argue that it was de facto not safe though as both of you were in an area where neither of you had priority? Or is "safe" a judgement that doesn't change whether or not you collided?


Of course they will.
A vehicle being where they should not be (or at least where hatchings are there to discourage) cannot be easily seen as blameless.
50/50 would be IMO very likely result.
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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 18:01
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 16:42) *
Of course they will.
A vehicle being where they should not be (or at least where hatchings are there to discourage) cannot be easily seen as blameless.
50/50 would be IMO very likely result.

So basically you are damned if you do, damned if you don't as a cyclist.

Wait in lane where you can't see far enough around the corner and pray no-one is cracking along when you decide to turn. Insurance say it is your fault because you're turning right.

Or wait in the hatchings, hope no-one cuts the corner (someone has already cut the corner, panicked, and swerved onto the wrong side of the road to me). If they do hit you insurance says you were jointly to blame, no insurance company to represent you so tough luck.

It wouldn't be so bad if this wasn't meant to be one of the council's six top priority "super routes". They have palmed off responsibility to the parish council saying they followed a hand drawn sketch they provided!
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southpaw82
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 18:41
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The argument would be that any damage or injury was partly your own fault and that you were contributorily negligent. I don’t really see it in these circumstances. I do see it once the borders are made solid.


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notmeatloaf
post Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 21:01
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 18:41) *
The argument would be that any damage or injury was partly your own fault and that you were contributorily negligent. I don’t really see it in these circumstances. I do see it once the borders are made solid.

I thought in the email he meant solid lines around the outside but given the change I think he just meant remove the gap in the hatchings rather than surround it with solid lines.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 06:42
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Tue, 20 Feb 2018 - 19:01) *
They have palmed off responsibility to the parish council saying they followed a hand drawn sketch they provided!

Highways are responsible, they may have had a contact from the Parish with a 'request' but should assess it properly before following it, get onto your councillorm, ask for the rationale provided by the Parish and put your own case (cycle route, protecting a right turning vehicle etc), in fact I'd suggest the 'outside' (of the curve) line should be solid (except for the right turn gap) to improve protection of those turning right from those 'tards likely to cut across it.


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bm1957
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:51
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If it was really that dangerous a turning for bikes, wouldn't it make sense to travel 10' more and take the next turning? Visibility is perfect from there.
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stukno
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:13
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ISTR that the Highway Code - on the subject of cross hatching, said something along the lines of ' to separate streams of traffic likely to be a danger to one another or to protect traffic turning right'
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DancingDad
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:26
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QUOTE (bm1957 @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:51) *
If it was really that dangerous a turning for bikes, wouldn't it make sense to travel 10' more and take the next turning? Visibility is perfect from there.


Not for people coming up from behind and who may also be drifting across the lines... many do swing wide on corners.

Must admit I would be concerned on a bike, simply no protection if a driver does drift into the area.
I reckon Rookie's idea of solid white lines on far side and leading into the corner makes sense.
Doesn't help the immediate though
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Lodesman
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:27
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From the highway code,

130.Areas of white diagonal stripes or chevrons painted on the road. These are to separate traffic lanes or to protect traffic turning right. (my italics)

If the area is bordered by a broken white line, you should not enter the area unless it is necessary and you can see that it is safe to do so.

If the area is marked with chevrons and bordered by solid white lines you MUST NOT enter it except in an emergency.

Laws MT(E&W)R regs 5, 9, 10 & 16, MT(S)R regs 4, 8, 9 & 14, RTA sect 36 & TSRGD 10(1)

I hope this helps.
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notmeatloaf
post Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:42
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QUOTE (bm1957 @ Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 16:51) *
If it was really that dangerous a turning for bikes, wouldn't it make sense to travel 10' more and take the next turning? Visibility is perfect from there.

Tried that but some dippy woman almost crashed into the back of me then shouted that I shouldn't be stopping there.

Ignoring her driving impairment it is very difficult to signal without brake lights "I'm turning right... not here... 20 metres on".

My experience on motorbikes and pushbikes is if you can't clearly signal your intentions then you're risking someone trying to drive through you. That's before you get on to stopping round a blind corner where someone doesn't expect you to be stopped.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 - 17:44
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micaRoss
post Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 08:32
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I would also prefer to wait in the hatched area. Any vehicle cutting the corner would be automatically at fault.
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Lodesman
post Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 08:39
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Small consolation perhaps ?
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southpaw82
post Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 11:59
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QUOTE (micaRoss @ Mon, 26 Feb 2018 - 08:32) *
Any vehicle cutting the corner would be automatically at fault.

There’s no such concept as automatic fault in such circumstances. The vehicle cutting the corner may be at fault but it would be determined on common law negligence principles. Mechanical defect, injury or illness of the driver, intervening 3rd party etc would all defeat you “automatic fault” argument.


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