Blue Badge PCN |
Blue Badge PCN |
Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 18:41
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,152 |
I parked in a 3 hour time limited on street disabled bay and the Blue Badge (BB) was clearly displayed on the windscreen. My mistake was failing to display the clock as I thought this only had to be done on yellow lines. So, I was entitled to park in the bay but hadn’t displayed the clock. We were there for about an hour.
The PCN stated Contravention 40; failing to display a BB in the prescribed manner. I appealed as the BB was clearly displayed and the rejection letter said the PCN was for failing to display the clock….although on the PCN it states failure to display the BB. After some research it appears that failure to display the clock doesn’t invalidate the BB so the car was entitled to be in the disabled bay. The actual offence should have been Contravention 30; staying beyond the permited time allowed. (although we didn’t do this I appreciate this would be assumed as no clock was displayed). So, is it worth pursuing this on the grounds that the PCN is invalid because the wrong Contravention code was used and would it be worthwhile contacting the council again and pointing this out. As 40 is at the higher rate and 30 is the lower rate the council is further penalising the disabled BB holder for an honest mistake. I appreciate parking has to be regulated but this seems disproportionate to the offence which was actually a genuine mistake and not an attempt to park illegally. In 52 years this is my first parking ticket!!! One irritating aspect is that judging by the time on the PCN the CEO must have watched me get the wheelchair out of the boot and then help my wife out of the car and into the chair. This post has been edited by billyblue1: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 18:43 |
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Sun, 13 Oct 2019 - 18:41
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Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 12:38
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#141
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Member Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,152 |
cp8759
I'm sent you a couple of messages in the last few minutes but I'm getting this error message. Sorry, an error occurred. If you are unsure on how to use a feature, or don't know why you got this error message, try looking through the help files for more information. The error returned was: You cannot send another PM until Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 12:39 |
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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 13:27
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#142
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Just to update everyone, adjudicator Yates allowed the appeal and fully accepted the central argument that there is no legal requirement to display a parking disc in a time-limited disabled bay.
The council attended the hearing and explained this would cause enforcement difficulties, the adjudicator explained that the council will need to deal with those difficulties within the constraints imposed by the regulations, and advice given in the blue badge booklet does not allow the council to side-step the regulations. The adjudicator also agreed that if the council wants to impose a requirement to display a clock, it would need to go and get a special authorisation from the SoS for a "display clock" sign as no such sign is currently authorised; and unless and until the council does this it would need to enforce the restrictions in the same way as it enforces restrictions for all other time limited bays i.e. by the CEO observing tyre valve positions in the normal way. The council representative objected as best she could by making repeated references to the blue badge booklet, but the adjudicator kept on saying that we have to go back to the regulations and if the requirement isn't in the regulations, then it doesn't exist. She said that if there is a discrepancy between the advice booklet and the regulations, the regulations always prevail. Although the appeal was allowed on this ground, the adjudicator also expressed strong reservations on the council policy which does appear to be a fettering of discretion and she said the council should consider this going forwards. I'll post up the adjudicator's decision once it becomes available. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 15:18
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#143
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 25 Jul 2010 Member No.: 39,245 |
I am surprised the appeal was upheld:
From the CEO handbook: Blue Badge holders Blue Badges generally permit parking on yellow lines for up to three hours and allow free parking on meter, ticket machine or voucher bays with no time limit. Special bays may be provided for Blue Badge holders and these may restrict the length of stay. On yellow lines or in restricted bays a parking disc must also be displayed showing the time of arrival of the vehicle If a blue badge holder parked in a valid manner with the clock but then overstayed would they be subject to code 30 (parking longer than permitted, carrying a lower penalty) or code 40 (invalid display of blue badge). When the observation is made after say 3 and a half hours and the clock shows the arrival time, at that point it would not be "correctly displayed". I guess the purpose is to ensure that disabled bays are not hogged up for long periods so other badge users will be able to find one more easily. |
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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 15:34
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#144
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Member Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,152 |
I'd like to thank everyone who contributed advice, both for and against, on taking this to appeal. A very special thanks to cp8759 who constructed a really excellent appeal document and represented me on the telephone conference.
The adjudicator's comments will certainly give St Helens Council Parking Services team something to think about! Hopefully, the adjudicator's decision will put to bed the assertion, once and for all, that to display a blue badge 'in the prescribed manner' means a time clock also has to be displayed. cp8759; thanks for the time and effort you put into this. Much appreciated. |
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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 15:45
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#145
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Member Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,152 |
Earl Purple.
The adjudicator said any overstay could be dealt with by the CEO in the same way as he/she would deal with an over stayer in a non BB parking bay. |
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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 15:51
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#146
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Member Group: Members Posts: 972 Joined: 25 Jul 2010 Member No.: 39,245 |
IMO it is open to an adjudicator, should they feel it necessary, to import into the order the clear requirements of the Act and regs that the display of a clock is required. The display of a clock was required. That's not in dispute. Does not displaying the clock though, equate to being “Parked in a designated disabled person’s parking place without displaying a valid disabled person’s badge in the prescribed manner”? This is wholly dependent on the TRO and not any guidance booklet or exemption regulations. I don't see anywhere in the TRO that says the clock is a part of the disabled badge or that failing to display the clock invalidates the badge. Personally I would argue that the failure to display the clock should be regarded as de minimis because the badge showed the OP was entitled to park there and the CEO could still establish if the car was parked for longer than the permitted period by applying the 2 customary observations that are routinely applied to limited waiting bays. I think phantom has a point about the disabled being treated less favourably here. If able bodied people don't have to display a clock when they park in limited waiting, why do the disabled have to? There is no need for it to establish the contravention. The clock requirement just increases a disabled person's chances of getting a PCN as this case demonstrates. You are right though, it can swing either way. Not only that but they are also subject to the lower level penalty if they do overstay. This should move to Flame Pit now though as the case has closed in the favour of OP. |
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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 18:11
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#147
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I am surprised the appeal was upheld: From the CEO handbook ... The adjudicator addressed this point and said that guidance handbooks and booklets are all well and good, but if there is a discrepancy between the regulations and the guidance then the regulations prevail. In this instance, it turns out both the BB booklet and (from what you say, I haven't checked) the CEO handbook are wrong. The adjudicator further explained that guidance is just the author's interpretation of what the requirements are, but guidance cannot alter the legal position. As for Wretched Rectum's point, the fact that the display of the clock was required was very much in dispute and it's what we won on. As billyblue1 says, hopefully this will put this one to bed. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 18:38
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#148
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I for one hold my hands up to some scepticism as to the merit of the argument, but it was well made and accepted by an adjudicator as being a correct interpretation
Well done CP and OP This could have implications for BB in loading bays where once again the regulations allow this -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 19:02
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#149
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Member Group: Closed Posts: 9,710 Joined: 28 Mar 2007 Member No.: 11,355 |
Are they likely to ask for a Review?
Mick |
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Wed, 11 Mar 2020 - 19:20
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#150
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Are they likely to ask for a Review? Mick They're welcome to try but I don't see the adjudicators decision being overturned as perverse or irrational. All she basically said is that the regulations actually mean what they say. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 12 Mar 2020 - 17:20
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#151
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
William Watson v St Helens Metropolitan Borough Council (SZ00006-2002, 11 March 2020) published in the usual place.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 01:50
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#152
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Member Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,152 |
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Fri, 13 Mar 2020 - 11:57
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#153
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
William Watson v St Helens Metropolitan Borough Council (SZ00006-2002, 11 March 2020) published in the usual place. I have no idea where the usual place is!! On the PCN flaws spreadsheet that's linked to in the sticky thread, the second tab is called "adjudications". -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 18:05
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#154
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Member Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,152 |
I wonder if anyone has now changed their view that a time clock must be displayed, alongside the blue badge, in a time limited disabled parking bay.
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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 18:11
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#155
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
I wonder if anyone has now changed their view that a time clock must be displayed, alongside the blue badge, in a time limited disabled parking bay. That's an interesting question Billy. I am a BB holder and If asked I would say you should display the clock anywhere a time limit is imposed. But I cannot fault the adjudicators interpretation of the law so would not hesitate in advising people to fight a ticket on that basis. But I will still display my clock -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 21 Mar 2020 - 23:29
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#156
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
I wonder if anyone has now changed their view that a time clock must be displayed, alongside the blue badge, in a time limited disabled parking bay. I haven't. Always felt it was good practice but felt it had to be in the TRO and as such was swayed towards it should be on the sign if required. And never believed that a failure to display (higher level) was appropriate when a motorist who overstayed P&D or limited time bay only copped a lower level penalty. I've been missing for a while so missed some of the interim discussions but I find the adjudicator's decision logical and cannot see any flaws in the legal position she followed, regulations trump guidance. It may not be binding (In a way I would love the council to appeal if only to see a higher court confirm that) but it has to be persuasive on future adjudicators. Well done to all involved. |
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Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 20:10
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#157
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Member Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,152 |
Just to add a footnote.
Just 10 days after the adjudicator's decision I received another PCN for the exactly same thing. For St Helens Council it's obviously business as usual. However, there was one difference; last time they were adamant the challenge would be refused. This time they cancelled the PCN within 2 working hours of my challenge but were still insisting it was correctly issued. My challenge was on the grounds there was no signage indicating a time clock must be displayed and therefore the contravention did not occur. Thank you for your email in connection to Penalty Charge Notice SZ2176604A. I can confirm the the Penalty Charge Notice was issued correctly in compliance with the Traffic Management Act 2004. Your vehicle was parked in a time limited disabled car park and you did not have your time clock, set at your arrival time displayed alongside your blue badge. When parking in a time limited disabled bay or double and single yellow lines Blue Badge holders must display the time clock alongside there blue badge. Badge holders are only allowed to park for a maximum of 3 hours on these restrictions so if the time clock is not set the Civil Enforcement Officer can not determine your arrival time. This is explained in the Blue badge handbook that was issued with your badge. On this occasion as a gesture of goodwill, Parking Services have applied discretion and accepted your challenge. However, it is the drivers responsibility to ensure the blue badge and time clock where required are clearly, correctly and securely displayed before leaving the vehicle. Notwithstanding this decision, the Council may be obliged to enforce any similar future contraventions. I can confirm that the case is now closed and you will receive no further correspondence from us in relation to this matter. I trust the above is of assistance to you. Kind regards |
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Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 21:02
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#158
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Be careful billy. We has a location where there was a dropped kerb but it was for aiding the binmen to get the bins into the road. We won that and the OP continued to park there. A couple of other PCN's were appealed and won and the OP got a bit cocky. He went to appeal without our aid and lost the adjudicator saying its a DK so tough
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 23:57
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#159
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Member Group: Members Posts: 45 Joined: 12 Oct 2019 Member No.: 106,152 |
Will do. We've crossed St Helens off our shopping destination list.
The dropped kerb topic is interesting. I live in a parking permit road and have a dropped kerb which I often park alongside as it's easier for my wife to transfer from her wheelchair onto the flat pavement. I only realised it was a possible offence after reading a thread on here. The CEO, who often stops for a chat, said he would only issue a PCN if the council had received complaints from residents. As I was a permit holder and he knew I lived there he wouldn't ticket me or any of the neighbours. The common sense attitude but, obviously, it won't always be him. I would never park across anyone else's DK |
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Thu, 2 Apr 2020 - 07:44
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#160
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Will do. We've crossed St Helens off our shopping destination list. The dropped kerb topic is interesting. I live in a parking permit road and have a dropped kerb which I often park alongside as it's easier for my wife to transfer from her wheelchair onto the flat pavement. I only realised it was a possible offence after reading a thread on here. The CEO, who often stops for a chat, said he would only issue a PCN if the council had received complaints from residents. As I was a permit holder and he knew I lived there he wouldn't ticket me or any of the neighbours. The common sense attitude but, obviously, it won't always be him. I would never park across anyone else's DK Its legal to park across your own DK (3) The second exception is where the vehicle is parked outside residential premises by or with the consent (but not consent given for reward) of the occupier of the premises. This exception does not apply in the case of a shared driveway. -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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