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10 minute grace period, mixed use bay, Tribunal win!, mixed use pay and display, no loading
Joshmow
post Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 17:53
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Received a pcn at 15.03 for on street parking in Hampstead.
I was parked legally in the bay with Blue Badge in pay and display. The pay and display parking runs from 9am-3pm. Then it is no loading no 3-8. I’ll post pcn and pics. The council website pictures only show part of the sign.

Does the below apply?



TMA 2004: The Secretary of State’s Statutory Guidance to the Local Authorities on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions 2015. Section 8.11 states:
The law requires that a penalty charge must not be issued to a vehicle which has stayed parked in a parking place on a road or in a local authority's car park beyond the permitted parking period for a period of time not exceeding 10 minutes. The grace period applies to on-street and off-street parking places provided under traffic orders, whether the period of parking is paid for or free. Any penalty charge during the 10-minute grace period would be illegal, unless the vehicle itself is parked unlawfully.


Thanks

This post has been edited by Joshmow: Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 13:08
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post Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 17:53
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 11:49
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QUOTE
IMO, the argument could go that a purposive interpretation of the regs is that they were seeking to provide a 10-minute safety net for motorists as regards the restriction to which they were subject when initially parking in a designated parking place. The parliamentary draughtsman did not contemplate the circumstances which are the centre of these representations/appeal in which within a marked parking place there are distinct parking and waiting restrictions.


This is the argument I have been purporting from the outset, it is my belief that it is the intent of parliament that when someone parked legally a 10 minute GP must be given at the end of that period. We must remember the amendment was made to curb the over enthusiastic enforcement by councils


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DancingDad
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 11:57
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 11:09) *
Mr M's reference could possibly be used to the OP's advantage.

To return to the first limb of the conditions, which we seem intent on skipping:

2) Paragraph (3) applies in relation to a contravention mentioned in subparagraph (a) to © of paragraph (1) where a vehicle is stationary in a designated parking place ....

(The only reasonable interpretation of 'is stationary' must be that at the time of the contravention the vehicle is stationary and not that at some prior time it was stationary)

…………..


That is ignoring the second limb which IMO cannot be ignored as it is joined with an AND.
".....And the vehicle has been left beyond the permitted parking period."
The vehicle was stationary in what was (right up to 3pm) a designated parking place AND the permitted parking period had expired (at 3pm)


Those two legs are satisfied in the OP's situation.
The only question in my mind is whether the PCN must relate directly to the expired permission, ie a P&D time had expired or any PCN.
I chose to interpret as any PCN, not only for obvious reasons but because the wording is not specific on the matter, which to me gives the benefit of the doubt to the disadvantaged party... the OP.
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stamfordman
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 12:01
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Natural justice would indicate that you shouldn't lose your 10 mins grace in a parking place where it applies.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 12:19
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The ONLY question IMO is whether during times when the parking bay is not operational and a waiting restriction is in effect it ceases to be a 'designated parking place' within the meaning of the '10-minute grace' regs.

If it does, then the authority are permitted to demand a penalty. But if it is not, then likewise they are not permitted provided the other conditions within the regs as regards the 10-minute grace' regs are met.

IMO, any challenge would have to lead the authority through the reasoning process step by step. A simple contention that a grace period applied would inevitably fail and leave the OP none the wiser as regards their rationale.
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 12:49
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 13:19) *
The ONLY question IMO is whether during times when the parking bay is not operational and a waiting restriction is in effect it ceases to be a 'designated parking place' within the meaning of the '10-minute grace' regs.

If it does, then the authority are permitted to demand a penalty. But if it is not, then likewise they are not permitted provided the other conditions within the regs as regards the 10-minute grace' regs are met.

IMO, any challenge would have to lead the authority through the reasoning process step by step. A simple contention that a grace period applied would inevitably fail and leave the OP none the wiser as regards their rationale.


Would you go into that much depth for a challenge or just allude to the GP and make the reasoning at NTO stage?


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DancingDad
post Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 13:11
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 27 Sep 2019 - 13:19) *
The ONLY question IMO is whether during times when the parking bay is not operational and a waiting restriction is in effect it ceases to be a 'designated parking place' within the meaning of the '10-minute grace' regs.
……….



No.
As you said earlier, there are three states that should be considered.
1: that the parking bay is operative within it's times so any contravention pertaining to the expiry of permitted time have to allow the 10 minutes.
2: that the Yellow lines are operative. In which case no 10 minutes need to be allowed.
3: the cross over period where a vehicle was parked lawfully up to the end of permitted time and then the yellow line restriction kicks in.


The third is the position that the OP is in. It doesn't matter that the bay is not a designated bay or not after 3pm, though if it is all the better, what does matter is that it was a designated bay.
And yes, I know you are looking at the tense between is and was but IMO irrelevant.
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Joshmow
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 20:48
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Hello

well Im at appeal stage now , I challenged and then made a formal representation for 10 minutes and disability ( with evidence of disability) , but they want to enforce. I'm going to the tribunal and will let them decide.

Just submitting it online. ill post further details. I asked for CEO notes 3 weeks ago, still waiting, but today is the last day to submit an appeal.


TBH Im probably being paranoid, but I wonder if its revenge for their complete cock up with a moving contravention, that got canceled after I went to my MP in September. They sent a picture of someone else's car to me as their evidence and failed to follow the procedural process and insisted on payment. My mp wrote to them the whole thing was cancelled immediately, they looked very bad.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 20:56
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Any chance of seeing the challenge, reps, NOR etc......???
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Joshmow
post Mon, 27 Jan 2020 - 21:57
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Yes see if i can get them on this week.
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Joshmow
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 20:44
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hello

the London Tribunal is by phone on Thursday. I can still submit evidence. Ive already put in detailed evidence of disability and reason for late return to car and also grace period. Ill see if I can get the documents on here.

Its all a bit crazy with lockdown and very limited access to care for me at present.

Hope everyone is well!!!
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 31 Mar 2020 - 20:59
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If we know what you have said we could possible add to it so post your appeal submission


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cp8759
post Wed, 1 Apr 2020 - 15:39
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Also post the council's case summary.


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Joshmow
post Wed, 8 Apr 2020 - 19:42
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Hello

Im not sure if this is the right place to post this,and Im sorry I can't find my original post about the PCN.

To recap, I was parked in Hampstead in September, on a mixed use bay 9am-3pm pay and display, then from 3pm-9pm no loading. I got a ticket at 3 minutes past 3pm.

There was much debate here on the topic of the 10 minute grace period, did it apply or not in this case. Camden refused my challenge and representation. I decided to go all the way to Tribunal.


The adjudicator found in my favour for 3 reasons, Camden's poor photographic evidence, Blue Badge- Equality Act and and yes the 10 minute rule applies!

I appealed on mitigation not being taken into account and 10 minute rule- although the bay turned into a no loading bay at 3.01pm. I had been legally parked in the pay and display bay up until 3pm- Camden were treating it as if it was just a no loading 24 hours.

Thanks everyone and especially Dancing Dad- I used your argument about the intention of the law.


Below is the Tribunal finding:






"In this case the Authority relies on the notes and photographs of the Civil Enforcement Officer (CEO). These show the appellant's vehicle at the relevant location. However the CEO's photograph of the time plate sign is of extremely poor quality. It is not possible to identify the location of the sign from the photo and only about a third of the sign is visible in the photograph. I acknowledge that the part of the sign that is shown refers to loading restrictions, however these signs have to be read as a whole. Providing a photo that only shows one third of a sign is not very cogent evidence. Furthermore as already mentioned, the angle the photo is taken from makes it very difficult to infer that it is the same sign the appellant's vehicle was parked next to. I take into account the CEO's notes, however it is reasonable to expect these to be supported by clear photographic evidence where (as in this case) it would have been relatively easy for such evidence to be produced.
In order to be able to enforce a PCN, the Authority has to show that it had clear signage in place notifying motorists of the relevant restrictions. Looking at the evidence as a whole, I am not satisfied the Authority has shown the signage in place on the day of the alleged contravention was adequate. I must therefore allow this appeal.
Even if I had been satisfied adequate signage was in place I would have allowed the appeal of the basis that the 10 minute grace period applicable under the 2015 Guidance did apply in these circumstances. The appellant told me (and I accept) that when she parked her vehicle in the bay it was a 'normal' parking bay. I do not think this is disputed. As she had a Blue Badge she was entitled to park there until the time permitted for parking expired. In my view at that point the 10 minute grace period applied even though the bay turned in to a no loading/waiting bay at the same time as the appellant's right to park expired. The 10 minute grace period effectively extended the life of the parking bay for 10 minutes. To find otherwise would go against the intention of the guidance. It would also discriminate against Blue Badge holders and that would be contrary to the Equality Act.
I should add that the medical evidence provided in the form of the appellant's care plan made it clear to me that it is highly likely the appellant was only prevented from getting back to her vehicle before 3pm because of medical issues that were beyond her control. I accept her evidence about this. I am not sure the Authority appreciated this when considering her representations, so arguable the appeal could also be allowed on the basis her representations were not considered properly.
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stamfordman
post Wed, 8 Apr 2020 - 20:45
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Thanks for posting this as it could be an important case.

Your thread is here - http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=130559

I have asked for a merge.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 - 20:46
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 8 Apr 2020 - 21:38
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Any chance of a case number so we can reference this to help others


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Joshmow
post Thu, 9 Apr 2020 - 06:46
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Hello

Case Reference is 2200040662.

I do hope that it will help others, in view of the 3 points the adjudicator made.

1.Photographic evidence
2. 10 minute grace
3. Council failed to consider representations properly.



Thanks again everyone !! - sorry I know Im pretty bad as posting on here sometimes and vanished in the middle of it. But the advice on here was so helpful, especially in regards to the purpose of the law regarding 10 minutes grace.


Is there any other information you want me to put up if can?
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