PCM Invoice on industrial estate, Have they got the driver over a barrell? Options

[stringman-uk]

Hi I am the RK of a car that was ticketed by PCM.
The driver parked in an industrial estate (opposite an empty, to let unit).
There was signage (photo attached)
A copy of the ticket is also attached.

Are then any Options open to me (as the RK) as I really dont have the energy and time to fight this if they have acted correctly.

From what i can tell ( but I am a complete beginner in this area) I can not give them the drivers info but will then get all the demands etc. Can they then pursue the RK?
£100 seems a bit steep for parking in a parking bay of an empty industrial unit.

Thanks in advance


Cant seem to get the second pic of the actual ticket to load?


This post has been edited by stringman-uk: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 09:16

Attached thumbnail(s)

 

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[Dave65]

£100 is usually the norm for PPN`s whether like it or not.

Can you post up a copy of the NTK with personal details redacted but leave the dates.

When was the NTK received?

[ostell]

Yes they can legitimately claim from the keeper IF they comply fully with Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, POFA for short.

Post up the redacted Notice to Keeper you received but leave dates

The sign could ge classed as forbidding in that it offering parking for permit holders only and no offer of a contract to oark for non permit holders.

[stringman-uk]

Thanks
for some reason I cant upload the jpg so here is a pdf

the bottom is cropped but all it says is

"please see reverse of this notice for further payment information"

"photographic evidence relating to theis contravention can be views online at :www.paymypcn-uk.co.uk"

many thanks

Attached File(s)

 2.pdf ( 208.96K ) Number of downloads: 102

 

[The Rookie]

If you read the FAQ you'll know how to post photo's (hint, its not using this site).

That appears to be the Notice to Driver (issued to the driver) left on a car and not a Notice to Keeper at all?

[ostell]

So with a Notice to Driver you appeal AS THE KEEPER so that the appeal arrives on day 26.

Sirs,

The driver handed you notice number xxxxx and after inspection of the site you are appealing that the notice failed to meet the requirements of paragraph 7 of schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, namely no period of parking specified, no creditor identified and as such cannot be considered a valid Notice to Driver for the purpose of the act.

The signage in the car park is of a “forbidding” nature. It is limited to cars displaying a valid permit only and therefore the terms cannot apply to cars without a permit because the signage does not offer an invitation to park on certain terms. The terms are forbidding. This means that there was never a contractual relationship. I refer you to the following case law: PCM-UK v Bull et all B4GF26K6 [2016], UKPC v Masterson B4GF26K6[2016], Horizon Parking v Mr J C5GF17X2 [2016] – In all three of these cases the signage was found to be forbidding and thus only a trespass had occurred and would be a matter for the landowner.

There is no requirement in law to identify the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Yours etc


Send using full name and address in the hope that having these details they will write back to you without issuing a Notice to Keeper within 56 days nor contact the DVLA for the registered keeper details. Either of these failures is a POFA fail and they cannot transfer liability to the keeper from the unknown driver.

If you can send first class post and get a free certificate of posting from a post office.

[stringman-uk]

Ostell,

Many thanks for your speedy and prompt reply. It really is appreciated.
Cas i ask the significance of it arriving by day 26?
Also is that day 26 from the issue date of 4th ie the 30th ?
Also if i appeal after the 14 days "discount" and lose will i then have to pay £100?
Finally, if they do issue a notice to keeper do i then have to pay?

Many thanks

This post has been edited by stringman-uk: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 - 11:29

[The Rookie]

They cannot apply for keepers details until 28 days has elapsed, so by providing the details at that point you hope they use the one provided. If they don't apply to DVLA then there is no keeper liability. Yes day 26 from when they issued the NTD (counting as Day 1)

When you provide the keepers address its worth tweaking it slightly so when they write you know if they are using that or a DVLA provided address, add a village name or an extra e for example (such as Green lane to Greene lane), as long as you'll still get the mail.

As you'll be paying nothing anyway, how does the discount period ending matter. they won't accept ANY APPEAL anyway, there is no money in accepting appeals, this isnt a reputable normal company you are dealing with.

[ostell]

At the moment they haven't issued a Notice to Driver that is compliant with the requirements of POFA so in theory they can't hold the keeper liable.

Here's POFA http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule

The requirements for the NTD are in paragraph 7 with the requirements for the NTK in paragraph 8

[stringman-uk]

Hi All

so today ( 14th August) a letter has arrived from PCM dated 5/8/2020.

It is addressed to the modified address i put on my letter. ( so i know that they didnt get the address from DVLA)

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6024/kz9Qop.jpg

Not sure what they are saying really and I am very confused by the date of the 5th when it arrived today.

All help is greatly appreciated

[ostell]

They say they are waiting for the driver to contact them or for you to confirm you are the keeper.

You can either ignore and wait the 2 weeks till day 56 or write to them telling them that no one, neither the driver nor the keeper can be held liable for any alleged breach of a non existent contract, as explained in your previous letter.

This is in the hope that they will continue the letter ping pong. Send so that it arrives a week before the end of the 56 days. Hopefully if they do issue a NTK then it will not arrive before day 56. The relevant time is the date the letter arrives. See if you can get the postman to confirm the date of delivery. A statement and signature on the envelope would suffice.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 14 Aug 2020 - 16:32

[stringman-uk]

Ostell

many thanks again.
What happens if they do send the NTK within the required 56 days?

[Jlc]

There are certain requirements to engage 'keeper liability' under PoFA.

Failing to meet those means they can only pursue the driver. However, they may still pursue the keeper on the presumption they were driving.

[stringman-uk]

Today, much to my horror, I discovered a letter had arrived ages ago from them which is a NTK.

the letter is attached. I am not sure when it arrived and it is to the address that is from DVLA as opposed to the address I gave.

It lists the date of notice as 18/8 so i have already gone over the 28 days.

Is there anything i can do or have i completely messed this up?

All help appreciated


https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5673/0ciaqa.jpg

[ostell]

Check that the NTK complies with POFA 7 and those details are correctly repeated in the NTK.

You can then tell them that they have not complied with the requirements of POFA and can't hold you liable, much the same as your original appeal

[stringman-uk]

Ostel, Thanks for the reply.

Could you see the NTK?

The link in the above post is dead and googling brings up a mass of confusion.

Some things i picked up though were that they have to provide a period of time. However they listed one time only ,as it was for not displaying a pass do they need to state a period of time? or is a single time sufficient?
It also says that they have to list the prices of penalties and discounts. There are no mention of that , but could they argue that the discounted period has expired?

Should i just reply stating that they have not complied with POFA & and along with my original appeal there is no case to answer?

I feel that i am getting out of my depth here.

[ostell]

Sorry, I mistyped, I meant to say compare NTD to para 7 and against the NTK. The information in the NTD must match the NTK. A single time cannot be a period.

Yes basically the same appeal points plus whatever new has appeared

[stringman-uk]

So I have just drafted the reply below.
Any thoughts?

It does say on both NTD and NTK " the period of parking to which this charge relates is that which immediately precedes the time of issue" Is this acceptable to be defined as a period?



Dear Sirs

Thank you for you recent correspondence dated 14/8/2020.
Again may I suggest you use another form of delivery service as, although you dated the letter 14/8/2020 it was not actually delivered until 03/08/2020. Despite the date of notice being 18/08/2020
I am writing to inform you that that no one, neither the driver nor the keeper can be held liable for any alleged breach of a non existent contract, as explained in my original letter.
I would also like to raise the following points with you:

In order to comply with the POFA Paragraph 7. The notice to keeper (NTK) must be identical to the notice to driver(NTD)
This includes any discounts offered for early payments. This was included on the NTD. But it has not been include on the NTK
POFA 7 also states that any invoices for parking charges must relate to a PERIOD of time.
A single Time is not admissible a period of time.
As you have not complied fully with The POFA 7 you can not hold myself, the registered keeper liable.
I trust this will finally resolve the matter

Kind regards

[stringman-uk]

Will this never end LOL

They have just sent me another letter.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/564/C77WJ6.jpg

Which again rejects my appeal.

Interestingly It is now offering me to settle for the original £60.
It was posted from Leeds as opposed to Reading.

Not sure if either of those things mean anything.

Any advice on this latest development would be greatly appreciated.

many thanks in advance