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FightBack Forums _ Council Tickets & Clamping and Decriminalised Notices _ Served or Not?
Posted by: Irksome Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 00:51
Post #1351339
Dear PePiPoo experts,
I'll start with the PCN :
And here is the record of the payment I made for the parking session 
The images uploaded by the CEO are key and are in the post below.
I was going to the bank, less than 100m away from where I parked. I parked my car and walked towards the bank, past the payment machine with my phone in hand. I expected to see the large sticker on the side of the machine as I have used in the area for years - but there were no stickers on the side of the machine. No problem, living locally (in an adjacent parking zone) I know that Wandsworth have the foresight to have stickers on every lamppost with the 5 digit code for that zone and the number to call to pay. But there was no sticker on the only lamppost I past. So rather than carry on to the corner to the bank, I crossed the road and double backed on myself to hunt for the code - but there are none as I walked half way back up the road ... so I recrossed the road and walked back down the road, and saw a couple of other machines with no stickers on the side, no stickers on the lampposts (we still have them outside my home) until I got back to the car to find the CEO (who I'd clocked when I parked a few hundred yards up the road) apparently issuing a PCN. I explained to him that I was hunting for the 5 digit code to pay for parking, and took him to the machine, to explain there was no large sticker on the side showing the code (indeed you could see the shadow of the previous sticker) when he pointed out to me, in plain sight had I looked that on the face of the machine there is a small sticker with the telephone number and 5 digit code!
As he showed me the code I already had my phone in my hand, at which point he assured me there was no point in paying now, as he had already generated the ticket, and proceeded to remove it from his machine and put it in the plastic envelope. I said that was ridiculous, he'd seen me trying to pay and asking him for the clarification - however he continued to state that he had no ability to show discretion (I specifically asked him on this point). Whilst I discussed this with him (and attempted to prevent him from photographing the car without me in the photo - but specifically did not prevent him from placing the ticket on the car event though he suggested that was what I was trying to do) I managed to call and pay for the parking (and in the middle of doing so someone called me which interrupted the process).
The ticket was placed on my car after (see the 5th image above) I paid for parking ...
May I seek your advice on how best to challenge the PCN, with the aim of getting Wandsworth to drop this PCN without going to adjudication ... I am not he Registered Keeper (but my wife is!).
Posted by: makara Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:15
Post #1351343
None of the images are opening for me - try uploading them to Tinypic (unless it's just my PC)
Posted by: Irksome Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 01:21
Post #1351344
I've edited the original post, and here are the CEO pics ...
These should now link correctly.
Posted by: Irksome Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 09:44
Post #1351365
I've sorted the image hosting issues now, and hope you can help.
Posted by: DancingDad Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 09:59
Post #1351370
The pictures show a PCN on car...so was served.
On basic facts, we have a PCN at 13.52 and a payment at 13.55.
With the PCN observation times starting at 13.47.
So parked up for at least 8 minutes without paying.
And a story that can be taken at face value or could be interpreted as I parked, didn't pay, saw a CEO by the car so went back with phone in hand pleading issues on making payment.
CEO notes may support your side but I would not rely on that they made any or that they will support you.
You need to convince council and possibly adjudicator that your side is the correct one and that you were genuinely trying to make payment.
I'd suggest some photos of the missing stickers would go some way towards that.
Time to make payment is accepted as reason to cancel a hastily served PCN.
But you will need to justify 8 minutes and show some evidence to support.
Posted by: stamfordman Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:07
Post #1351373
In other boroughs the location is on the bay signs, so that's a point - you shouldn't have to hunt high and low for this.
However, parking apps such as Ringgo will geo-locate you - I see Wandsworth uses Parkmobile.
Some of the council pics were taken after your session started.
Posted by: hcandersen Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:11
Post #1351374
I parked in a parking place subject to a pay or P&D restriction;
Instructions on how to pay were placed on a P&D ticket machine situated within the parking place;
I left my car parked without paying the applicable charge
A PCN was issued for not displaying a valid ticket or paying the parking charge;
I argued with the CEO in the execution of their duty;
I purchased parking time which commenved after the times of contravention and service of the PCN.
Shorn of editorial, these appears to be essential objective or agreed acts.
The OP overlays this with a claim that they made a reasonable attempt to pay, essentially based on them not seeing the instructions on the machine and looking widely for a location number.
OP, how would you know PBP and tariff unless you had read this on the machine?
Edit: the traffic sign does not allow PBP, it is only permit holders or pay and display. So where does PBP come into this?
2nd edit: the GSV shows that the traffic sign opposite states 'pay at machine' and includes an arrow... to a traffic sign which states 'pay at machine opposite', so, arguably, according to the OP's account they did not leave the parking place because both sides of the road are regulated by the same machine and tariff.
But none of the 3 traffic signs in GSV refers to PBP.
Posted by: Irksome Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:21
Post #1351377
As stamfordman points out the PCN was served after I paid for the parking session.
hcanderson, I park regularly in the streets here, and always pay to park, using the same method every time of calling the number posted on the sign. The signs are always in my experience either placed on the side of the payment machine, and additionally on lampposts. I will take images of these signs in similar locations today.
For some reason the signs appear to not have been placed in the positions I expected them to be, and instead on this machine, a smaller sign has been posted on the face of the machine which is not where I expected to see it based on my previous experience. I shall obtain evidence to support this statement today.
I'd dispute the observation time, but I suspect there is little mileage in pursuing this route as its my word against the CEO's.
Posted by: stamfordman Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:25
Post #1351379
There are only a couple of meters in the street and this one that was near the OP wasn't (last August) exactly shouting out a location number as we know they do in other places. Note that Wandsworth allows Parkmobile in all P&D bays and it is not exactly making things easy on the street, or wasn't back then.
https://flic.kr/p/23RzFcD
No - I said some pics were taken. The PCN was served before your session started.
Posted by: hcandersen Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:31
Post #1351380
Note that Wandsworth allows Parkmobile in all P&D bays and it is not exactly making things easy on the street, or wasn't back then.
But this does not permit them to maintain traffic signs which require the display of a ticket.
Posted by: stamfordman Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:38
Post #1351382
But this does not permit them to maintain traffic signs which require the display of a ticket.
We've been through the display ticket/PBP issue many times though...
Wandsworth clearly hasn't bothered to spend the money on updating all its P&D bay signs. Other boroughs have.
Wandsworth says:
"The location code will be clearly displayed on the side of each pay and display machine."
http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/200459/parking_zones/359/pay_to_park_using_your_mobile_phone
Posted by: Irksome Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:40
Post #1351383
The PCN was generated before the session started, but if my understanding of service is correct (placing it on the car or handing it to the vehicles keeper, or later posting it) then the act of service occurred after the session started - potentially usefully, the CEO photo's show that the PCN was not on the car after the PCN was generated, but was placed on the car at 13:57, some time after the parking session started.
Posted by: DancingDad Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:46
Post #1351385
The PCN was generated before the session started, but if my understanding of service is correct (placing it on the car or handing it to the vehicles keeper, or later posting it) then the act of service occurred after the session started - potentially usefully, the CEO photo's show that the PCN was not on the car after the PCN was generated, but was placed on the car at 13:57, some time after the parking session started.
You are conflating time of contravention with time of service.
They are different times.
At the time of contravention there was no parking session in place.
That service happened later is neither here nor there.
Posted by: Irksome Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:49
Post #1351387
Thank you DD - that was the point I was trying to get at and your answer makes sense.
I should add that I did request that the CEO make a note of my claim to be having difficulty finding the paytopark code, and that he said he would do so but that I saw no evidence of him doing so on his machine.
Posted by: DancingDad Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 10:59
Post #1351389
If the CEO is doing their job properly, they made notes and these will support your story.
So do request them with any challenge.
But is a big IF and I wouldn't bet on it.
Posted by: Irksome Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 18:48
Post #1351525
I revisited the site today, and took pictures of a similar setup nearer where I live, I think the difference is stark. It's clear there is an issue on this road and the few surrounding, as not only are a lot of the signs missing, many are defaced.
Examples of what I expected to see
The following is the exact situation in Comyn Road (pics taken today, but nothing has changed in the last 3 days). The meter has no stickers on either side, the immediate nearest lampposts and signposts have no signs, and those that are further up the road (the opposite direction to which I went looking) have defaced signage.
And here is the face of the meter, that I completely failed to look at!
I also have a further point:
Is the contravention code 12 correct? I was displaying a valid permit for a different subzone (this zone is C1, mine is for C3). Surely therefore the appropriate contravention code should be 19 (Parked in a residents' or shared use parking place or zone either displaying an invalid permit or voucher or pay & display ticket, or after the expiry of paid for time).
At http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/200461/parking_tickets_and_fines/307/about_penalty_charge_notices_pcn/2 Wandsworth explain that PCN's are either 'more serious' Band A (£130) or Band B (£110) or 'less serious' Band A (£80) or Band B (£60) but I can't see what on earth qualifies as Band A or Band B from that page?
I suggest that another ground for reps could be the "penalty exceeded ..."
A couple of further images I took today :
Posted by: stamfordman Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 19:04
Post #1351528
As I pointed out they say that location is on the side of the meters. Not in this case.
Band A/B is inner city/outer city.
https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/parking-services/parking-and-traffic/parking-advice-members-public/parking-band-map
Posted by: Irksome Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 19:12
Post #1351530
I have taken a capture of this statement on their website for my reference, thank you.
Band A/B is inner city/outer city.
https://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/services/parking-services/parking-and-traffic/parking-advice-members-public/parking-band-map
Yes sorry our posts crossed.
How on earth am I supposed to know that from the Wandsworth website? However, your information clearly defines a ground for the "penalty exceeding" as they have charged a Band A fine for a Band B zone ... wouldn't this make ALL of Wandsworths PCN's invalid?
Posted by: stamfordman Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 19:19
Post #1351532
Not so fast:
Band A (£130 or £80 depending on how serious the parking contravention is considered to be) – Applies to the area north of the borough bounded by the south circular and the A3 to the west.
Band B (£110 or £60 depending on how serious the parking contravention is considered to be) -Applies in the remainder of the borough.
http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/info/200461/parking_tickets_and_fines/307/about_penalty_charge_notices_pcn
Posted by: Irksome Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 20:18
Post #1351555
Who sets the bands? London Councils website clearly indicates that Wandsworth is band B, but Wandsworth have decided they have two areas that have separate banding?
What are your (all and sundry) thoughts on the contravention code?
Posted by: stamfordman Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 20:38
Post #1351562
The London Council's map is only rough - Camden for example has some Band B roads in the north of the borough.
The map does clearly show two bands in Wandsworth though and Comwyn Road is north of the A3.
I think it's up to the councils to decide what roads are the ones most in demand for parking and band accordingly.
Posted by: hcandersen Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 21:08
Post #1351566
OP, pl stop cherry-picking photos, it won't pursuade anyone, neither would an argument based on the sign on the machine isn't as big as some others and (possibly) placed in a different position ( to which I would add a better position because it brings all instructions together in one place).
You've posted the key photo i.e. the absolutely clear PBP location on 'the face of the meter, that I completely failed to look at!'
Your choice to make informal reps, but on the basis of what've you've said and shown us I suggest an apologetic letter, not an aggressive one because this would definitely leave you with adjudication (on the basis of no argument at all, just annoyance) with the full, and correct, penalty in play.
And the code is correct. You permit was never valid for this location (unless you can establish the contrary) and therefore 19 was not an option.
Posted by: stamfordman Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 22:45
Post #1351593
It's not as bad as HCA makes out. I think you have a good case - the council should display the location clearly, and the idea of having it on the side of the machines is so you can see the location without traipsing all the way to the machine, and in any case Wandsworth has scrimped on signage and just put those small posters on the posts, which have become unreadable in the one you show. You were in the vicinity and eager to pay.
The correct signage should be like this one - which is opposite my house in Hackney:
https://flic.kr/p/23RCCDX
Posted by: Irksome Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 23:08
Post #1351597
You've posted the key photo i.e. the absolutely clear PBP location on 'the face of the meter, that I completely failed to look at!'
Your choice to make informal reps, but on the basis of what've you've said and shown us I suggest an apologetic letter, not an aggressive one because this would definitely leave you with adjudication (on the basis of no argument at all, just annoyance) with the full, and correct, penalty in play.
And the code is correct. You permit was never valid for this location (unless you can establish the contrary) and therefore 19 was not an option.
Dear HCA, I'm not cherry picking photo's - there were more that I could have uploaded to emphasise my point, but the forum software would not allow me to include further images. Yes you are 100% correct that the key photo is on the machine as I posted, and yes I felt like an idiot not seeing it, but truthfully, it was the CEO who pointed to me where the information I was seeking was situated - it was just not where I expected (legitimate expectation) the information to be based on my regular use of the wandsworth system - I am a daily visitor to this site, and take great interest in the subjects discussed here, offering my advice where I can (although its often removed!), but this was simply me missing the blindingly obvious because I did not expect the signage to be there when everywhere else it has in my experience been placed on the side of the machine or on a nearby lamp-post. I also was trying to pay by phone as I always do (giving me a receipt for expense claim which is straightforward for my team to claim for me).
If my permit was invalid, then surely it was invalid ... how would an adjudicator consider the appropriateness of the contravention code - based on the codes and descriptions listed on the Wandsworth site, there are at least 3, if not 4 that are valid descriptions of my alleged contravention!
Stamfordman, where's the technical argument there however. Yes I agree, its easier in Westminster, for example, where the location code is on the sign. I suppose what you are saying is that the roadside signage doesn't even show that pay by phone/app is possible ... in fact it requires examination at the payment machine to discover that you can pay by phone/app in this particular location.
Posted by: stamfordman Sun, 28 Jan 2018 - 23:41
Post #1351606
Er, you were looking for the location code, I thought. You knew you could pay by phone.
Posted by: Irksome Mon, 29 Jan 2018 - 00:51
Post #1351613
Yes, but as is most applicable to this location (being near Clapham Junction) is what the 'man on the Clapham Omnibus' would understand to be the instructions conveyed by the signage?
Posted by: disgrunt Mon, 29 Jan 2018 - 06:42
Post #1351618
Isn't your informal challenge as simple as I parked up, walked to the nearest machine, the pay by phone code wasn't on the side, checked each machine in the parking area in turn before I realised the code for this area was situated on the phone of the machine. I paid by phone so I was surprised to find a PCN on my return to the vehicle.
The council will surely think it was a case of the CEO checking for your reg on him/her machine and either miss typing or checking before the system had been updated.
Posted by: hcandersen Mon, 29 Jan 2018 - 08:32
Post #1351629
The signs are clear but wrong, but they are clear. No-one could think other than I must go to the machine to get my ticket.
And on the machine are clear instructions on how to pay and, lo and behold, info on PBP, all in the same place on the machine.
And the OP admits the PBP info is clear and that they simply missed it, by inference because the didn't even look at that side.
The OP needs to come clean with the authority, no fudging or dodging around facts, because I think this could only strengthen their case, not that this would necessarily win.
I have a permit for zone ** in which shared use parking places allow PBP, although not stated on the traffic signs. In my zone, the PBP locations are, in my experience, placed either on the side of the P&D machine or on every lampost in the vicinity. In this case I parked in a shared use bay in zone ** and saw a similar traffic sign which, although referring only to P&D, I thought would allow PBP. As I am a registered and regular PBP user (you would have evidence to support this) I walked to the machine, which was on my route to the shops in any event, and looked at the facing side, the back and the further side but couldn't see a location number. I carried on walking because I was confident that I would see a sign on a lamp column. As it turned out, I couldn't find one (OP, this is where you should be clear IMO). I did not turn into Northcote Road, but instead crossed Cormyn and made my way back on the opposite side looking for the elusive location on a lamp column etc..... It was while conducting these perambulations that I saw the CEO by my car etc....
On this occasion I would ask the authority to exercise discretion and cancel the PCN and also enquire when the council intend to erect correct traffic signs (I've included an example which I've seen in another area) which refer to PBP and include the location number within the sign itself.
This puts all the facts in place as far as I'm aware. They may or may not cancel and you could then decide whether to continue but at least you would have their reasoning.
Posted by: stamfordman Mon, 29 Jan 2018 - 09:21
Post #1351637
What? If you go down that route then you could not have been looking for a location number as I presume you mean someone who knows nothing about Wandsworth. Was that you?
In my zone, the PBP locations are, in my experience, placed either on the side of the P&D machine or on every lampost in the vicinity.
However, the OP is a Wandsworth resident who knows that PBP is applicable in all borough P&D bays so is not entering some alien zone where there is life but not as we know it.
And Wandsworth has committed to placing location signage on the side of the machines - this isn't just about the OP's experience.
Posted by: hcandersen Mon, 29 Jan 2018 - 21:55
Post #1351898
You miss my point.
The OP must construct a compelling argument as to why they did not comply with the instructions on the traffic sign: this is the bottom line.
Their argument is that they adopted exactly the same approach as in their zone - I didn't feel the need to specify that this was also in Wandsworth- which was to give a cursory glance at the traffic sign to show that it was shared use and then simply look for the PBP location where their custom and practice showed that it would be i.e. on a lamp column or side of the machine.
Posted by: Irksome Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 23:18
Post #1367604
My Wife has only today noticed a reply to her reps from WBC dated 4th March and forwarded it to me this evening ...
The PCN was issued because your vehicle was parked in a resident permit holder’s only bay during prescribed hours without displaying a valid permit or voucher. The hours of restriction are 8:30am to 6:30pm Monday to Saturday.
The photos which prove this contravention are now available on the following link: www.wandsworth.gov.uk/pcnonline by entering the PCN number and the vehicle registration number.
You are contesting this charge on the grounds that you partner could not find the location code on the pay and display machine so therefore went to look for the requisite code on another machine or on other time plate columns but could not find a code.
Whilst this may be the case, as you are now aware, the location code was on the front of the pay and display machine. However in this instance if the location code could not be found, the alternative means of payment could have been used to ensure parking rights were displayed within the 5 minutes grace period given upon parking.
Our records indicate that the PCN was issue at 1:52pm and your parking rights were issued 3 minutes after this. I acknowledge that your partner had a conversation with the officer at this time, however as the PCN was already issued the officer took the right action to place it on the vehicle as it still remained in contravention at the material time.
I would advise that motorists should ensure that they have the wherewithal to pay for valid parking rights before they park. This may mean having adequate change credit/debit card for the length of parking they require, or an operational Smartphone for the Parkmobile service. A motorist should not park if they find that they haven’t the required means of payment.
Given the above, I am satisfied that the PCN was correctly issued and regrettably, you have not established sufficient grounds for cancellation of this penalty charge. As your enquiry was received within the discount period the amount of £65.00, will be accepted if payment is received within 14 days of the date of this letter.
To make a credit or debit card payment please call our 24 hour automated payment line on 0800 021 7763 or pay online by visiting www.wandsworth.gov.uk/pcnonline.
Alternatively, your cheque or postal order should be made payable to “Wandsworth Borough Council”, clearly identified with the Notice number written on the reverse side and sent to: Wandsworth Borough Council (Parking), PO Box No. 4405, London, SW18 2XN.
If payment is not received as detailed, I shall assume that you wish to pursue the matter and shall arrange for a Notice to Owner to be sent to the registered keeper of the vehicle so that formal representations may be made. Should these be rejected, the registered keeper of the vehicle will then be afforded the opportunity to appeal to the Parking Adjudicator.
I should point out that, should you decide to take this course of action, on the expiry of the discount period you will forfeit the right to pay the Penalty Charge at the lower rate and the full charge of £130.00 will be due.
If you are not the registered keeper of the vehicle e.g. the vehicle is a company or lease/hire vehicle, or being used with the owner’s consent, I suggest you advise the keeper that a Notice to Owner (NTO) will be issued.
The options are therefore to pay the PCN or follow the statutory process to submit a formal representation as explained above. Any further information or evidence for the Council's consideration should only be included as part of the formal representation made by the registered keeper. Any additional communication received prior to the issue of the NTO will be filed for information purposes only without a response, although it may be considered if formal representations are received.
This concludes the Council’s dealings in this matter at this stage.
I will dig out the reps my wife sent and update this thread shortly. Due to the delay in our communication, the full £130 is in play so we'll take this to adjudication if WBC cannot be convinced to cancel the PCN first ... I like the last line of their statement!
Posted by: cp8759 Fri, 16 Mar 2018 - 23:47
Post #1367616
See what others think, but I think there's at least one PI ground of appeal. The rejection says "Any additional communication received prior to the issue of the NTO will be filed for information purposes only without a response, although it may be considered if formal representations are received."; however under regulation 3(2)(b) of the appeal regs, they must consider any informal reps they receive, even if they don't respond.
I also take issue with "the alternative means of payment could have been used to ensure parking rights were displayed within the 5 minutes grace period given upon parking."; there is no "grace period" granted by the council out of the goodness of their hearts. It's a matter of law (as found in countless adjudications) that motorists are allowed a short but reasonable time to find out what the restrictions / charges are, and make appropriate payment. Whether the circumstances of the case mean the amount of time taken to find the location code goes beyond the reasonable amount of time allowable is a fact dependant question, but the council appear to have applied a wrong understanding of the law on this point.
Posted by: Irksome Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 17:03
Post #1398399
I realise I haven't updated this thread, and of course I now have to make Formal Reps in response to the NTO.
Further reps were made in response to the previous reps submitted, to which the following reply was received (this is the substantial part of the letter excluding pleasantries).
The Council will therefore not enter into further correspondance with you (prior to the issue of the NTO). Accordingly your letter has been filed for information purposes only at this stage and will be considered if formal representations are received.
Am I correct in thinking that this a clear case of fettered discretion?
MTIA - Irksome
Posted by: DancingDad Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 17:10
Post #1398402
Yup
Reasonable time not a fixed period... but not one second more.
That 5 minutes was exceeded is only a reason for the PCN to be served, presumably council guidance to CEOs but cannot be used to overturn reasonable time.
The time taken will need to be justified.
Posted by: hcandersen Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 22:22
Post #1398498
What NTO?
Pl post it all less personal info.
Posted by: Irksome Thu, 12 Jul 2018 - 22:39
Post #1398502
Best I can do right now 
Posted by: Irksome Tue, 7 Jan 2020 - 22:28
Post #1541191
Unreal that I am updating this thread in 2020 ... but I am ...
Received Notice of Acceptance (yes this PCN) dated 15th November 2019
Received Charge Certificate (yes PCN numbers matched) dated 27th December 2019
Do I need to await an order for recovery, or is there any way to prevent further effort being spent on this matter?
Posted by: PASTMYBEST Tue, 7 Jan 2020 - 22:30
Post #1541192
Received Notice of Acceptance (yes this PCN) dated 15th November 2019
Received Charge Certificate (yes PCN numbers matched) dated 27th December 2019
Do I need to await an order for recovery, or is there any way to prevent further effort being spent on this matter?
No don't confuse it
Posted by: Irksome Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 08:49
Post #1541239
What other option do I have? The only route I can see is to await the OfR and then file a declaration that I did not receive a rejection to my reps - which is true, I received a notice of acceptance?
Posted by: hcandersen Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 09:37
Post #1541248
Do I need to await an order for recovery, or is there any way to prevent further effort being spent on this matter?
No and yes.
But first post your NOA.
Posted by: Irksome Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 11:26
Post #1541284
Have called Wandsworth and they confirm the Charge Cert was sent in error and that it will be cancelled and I will receive confirmation by email today ... if not I'll be back!
Posted by: hcandersen Wed, 8 Jan 2020 - 12:16
Post #1541306
Which of course is the way of settling this outwith the OfR procedure.
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