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Strangers Cars Parking Outside house, For poachers turned gamekeepers
rosturra
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 21:28
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My wife was having a conversation with a pensioner neighbour who has a problem with strangers cars being parked outside her house, so her visitors cannot.

My initial indifference "Tough; there's nothing you can do. So long as the cars are insured and taxed" was frowned upon... rolleyes.gif
So I said I'd check opinion here to see what the consensus says.

This is in a Village called Emsworth on South coast between Chichester & Portsmouth. It's on the sea and pretty, so gets a lot of day trippers, so residential streets are yellow lined.
Parking is difficult.

In a back street, a small development of houses were built about 35 years ago. Each house has allocated garage - or dedicated off street parking space.

However, I'm told is that three parking spaces were built and left 'for visitors'. I cannot vouch for this - before my time - but they look the same age as the development.
Generally this had not been not a problem. The spaces got taken by visitors and also by the general public (non residents) - on a first come basis - but generally there was churn.

However recently the 3 places have been spotted and hi-jacked by a third party (Mr X) to permanently store cars. If ever a car is moved, then another car is driven to replace it to keep the space.
So the spaces are now never available for Locals or visitors.

1) If the car parking spaces are dedicated to the general public - then would this be documented anywhere? By council etc?

2) If so, is Mr X entitled to do what he is doing? Would it make any difference if he was trading cars?

3) Is it possible that street car parking spaces could be dedicated to the estate use only?
If so where would that be documented? Who would own the land? Where is access defined?
In the title deeds? Or on land registry?

4) If the spaces were in fact restricted to the estate residents. Then can they now assert than right?

5) If so strangers are presumably committing trespass? And can be dissuaded thus.

This is the location on GSV Car Parking Spaces


Obviously the estate residents need to find out the facts first; before considering any further action.

But if anyone could nudge me into telling them what they need to look for; I would appreciate it.
























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post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 21:28
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Slapdash
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 21:39
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Those DYL's look like they are still in force where the vehicles are parked. Perhaps those folk who are moaning might like to ask the local authority why they are not being ticketed.

It might elicit useful information as to the status of the spaces.
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notmeatloaf
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 21:43
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You need to ask the council for the Highways Register and see if that land us part of the highway.

If so then the double yellows extend up to the wall anyway. They may not have been enforced by convention but if you push the council they may well - for everyone.

If it is private land you need to find out who owns it but from the GSV that looks unlikely.

You cannot have conditions on public highway parking like "just for real visitors" or "you need to share". The restrictions there seem to be no parking 24/7 anyway so anything more permissive is a bonus. However the adult thing to do would be to discuss it with the car owner and see if a compromise can be reached. I doubt he is taxing and insuring three cars for fun.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 21:44
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rosturra
post Thu, 16 Aug 2018 - 21:59
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I did wonder about the DYLs going up to the wall - but as they are obvious carparking spaces thought it was straw grasping...
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rosturra
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 10:43
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Thanks for the nod to check Highway status.

I have checked and the road is a highway.

Furthermore looking at Hampshire Transport Website

As a general rule of thumb it is the private boundary fences that demark the extent of the highway, there is no standard width of the highway.

If an owner moves his boundary back and effectively allows the public to use his land as if it was part of the highway, then highway rights can become established.

For highway rights to be established the legal view is that land must have been used as highway for a period of 20 years. Once highway rights have been established, then highway rights can only be extinguished by a formal order.


Also re. ownership

The legal assumption therefore is that in the absence of an owner, adjacent landowners can claim up to half the width of the highway.

It looks to me as if the owners - if they ever had exclusive use - gave that up, as parking spaces effectively used as highway for 20 years.

The only way they could realistically extinguish the highway rights, would be if the parking spaces were between carriageway and property. Which they are not.

The residents could question why anyone can park on DYL at all. But that particular sleeping dog in the manger would bite their noses and spite their faces, so best to leave it lie.


The only question unanswered is, does it make any difference if Mr X was using public road to park cars for business reasons. E.g. He is trading cars etc.




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The Rookie
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 11:17
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QUOTE (rosturra @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 11:43) *
The only question unanswered is, does it make any difference if Mr X was using public road to park cars for business reasons. E.g. He is trading cars etc.

None at all assuming they are legal to park (taxed and insured).....

HOWEVER if he is trading from his home address he may need planning consent, I know this isn't always the case but not the ins and outs of it.


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Slapdash
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 11:56
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In terms of selling my local district council had a clamp down. Towed a bunch away etc (they were parking on roundabouts etc).

The article was quoting some bit of the highways act which seemed to suggest more than 1 might be an issue.

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Fredd
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 13:28
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 12:17) *
QUOTE (rosturra @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 11:43) *
The only question unanswered is, does it make any difference if Mr X was using public road to park cars for business reasons. E.g. He is trading cars etc.

None at all assuming they are legal to park (taxed and insured).....

Not true. Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005.

QUOTE
3 Exposing vehicles for sale on a road

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if at any time—

(a) he leaves two or more motor vehicles parked within 500 metres of each other on a road or roads where they are exposed or advertised for sale, or

(b) he causes two or more motor vehicles to be so left.

(2) A person is not to be convicted of an offence under subsection (1) if he proves to the satisfaction of the court that he was not acting for the purposes of a business of selling motor vehicles.

(3) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale.

(4) In this section—

“motor vehicle” has the same meaning as in the Refuse Disposal (Amenity) Act 1978 (c. 3);

“road” has the same meaning as in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27).


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The Rookie
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 19:45
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If they are not exposed or advertised for sale though?

My understanding is that means a ‘for sale’ notice on them, so if you advertise online and put no notice in the car I believe it’s legal?

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 19:46


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notmeatloaf
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 20:54
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 20:45) *
If they are not exposed or advertised for sale though?

My understanding is that means a ‘for sale’ notice on them, so if you advertise online and put no notice in the car I believe it’s legal?

Clark vs Strachan 1940 they only need to be exposed in order to attract offers from members of the public. There does not need to be a direct link.

So if you advertise them on eBay and show them to potential purposes it is likely covered by CNE. If you just store them then probably not. Again convincing the LA to give a toss seems unlikely.
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Fredd
post Fri, 17 Aug 2018 - 21:49
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That provision was included at the behest of LAs who were complaining that they lacked the ability to tackle the problem of dodgy traders masquerading as private sellers and not dealing from any business premises, so you'd hope they might be interested.


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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 13:19
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Wasn't it focussed on the, at time increasingly common, sight of entire stretches of roads having cars parked with large "For sale" signs in the window, usually on busy roads?

If the trader was committing a nuisance by obstructing a road or conducting business around the cars it might be different. But just parking cars for storage is more tenuous and thus would be much more dependent on whether the council wanted to take a punt.

I think more likely they will just instruct a CEO to pop round every so often and ticket the cars which will solve the problem in the immediate term but will mean the parking is then off limits for everyone.

I still think it would be considerably easier to speak to the owner and, if they aren't helpful, at least you have a slightly stronger case with the council. I remember when I had just finished uni and was working every hour god sent in a crappy cheap studio flat to save money for a house, we used to run the washing machine first thing in the morning, hang it out then when we got back in the evening it was dry. One of our neighbours anonymously put in a noise complaint to the council.

The council did contact us but in a very laid back "we have to contact you but honestly, you need to wash your clothes and this is a waste of time" type fashion. Of course if said anonymous person had just come round and spoke to us we could have probably worked something out in five minutes.

Quite possibly by trying to set the council on whoever the owner is you will just get their backs up too.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 13:21
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rosturra
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 08:43
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Two problems with that approach. Remember it is pensioners we are talking about.

1) No idea who the nuisance parker is; or where he lives. Would need to catch him in the act of parking, and quick enough to get on over there.

2) It's relatively easy to have a chat with a neighbour about noise etc, as you have the moral high ground. And hopefully all want to live together, so happy to compromise.
It's harder to approach a stranger who is likely to be belligerent with "Can you stop parking your taxed and insured cars legally?".

Having said that, I was speaking to one old dear yesterday. She spotted a couple looking at one car - assumed they were prospective customers - she phoned up a neighbour for moral support to go and confront them. But by the time the second granny was ready they had gone!
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The Rookie
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 09:10
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How about getting the makes and models involved, you know the postcode, you could do a search of Autotrader, ebay etc to see if you can find the cars, you would then have the contact details for the seller......


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rosturra
post Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 19:19
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 10:10) *
How about getting the makes and models involved, you know the postcode, you could do a search of Autotrader, ebay etc to see if you can find the cars, you would then have the contact details for the seller......


I'll try that.
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