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Vars Technology LTD parking charge
DeterminedMan469
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 18:38
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Hi All,

New to the forum and wondering if I could get some advice.


As the RK, I received a NTK for an overstay of 11 minutes at a BP car park. Already talked to the manager and he tried to explain that there was nothing he could do.


NTK front and back

Signage



Thanks in advance, any help would be greatly appreciated

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post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 18:38
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DWMB2
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 18:47
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You've obscured some of the useful info on that notice! Can you either tell us or show us all the dates and times on there.

What was the reason for the driver's overstay?


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Jlc
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 19:07
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QUOTE (DeterminedMan469 @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 18:38) *
Thanks in advance, any help would be greatly appreciated

Private parking companies don't uphold appeals as they don't have to - and cancelling charges means they don't get paid...

It is not recommended to ignore though as this could be viewed as 'unreasonable'.

The pictures of the signs looks like they are pants. They need to prominent to form a contract.

Ultimately, they have 6 years to commence a claim. I have no statistics on VARS making claims but that doesn't mean they won't, eventually.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 19:07


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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DeterminedMan469
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 19:26
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QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 18:47) *
You've obscured some of the useful info on that notice! Can you either tell us or show us all the dates and times on there.

What was the reason for the driver's overstay?



Apologies!

Date of Event: 19/11/2021
Date of Notice: 25/11/2021

The vehicle entered at 13:01 and exited at 14:42

With regards to the drivers overstay, food was purchased from BP and consumed within the car. I'm aware there's a grace period in the BPA code of conduct of 10 mins, which would put the driver 1 minute over the maximum time?

This post has been edited by DeterminedMan469: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 19:47
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Jlc
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 19:47
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Yup, issued for 1 minute - they give no prisoners.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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DeterminedMan469
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 20:06
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 19:07) *
QUOTE (DeterminedMan469 @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 18:38) *
Thanks in advance, any help would be greatly appreciated

Private parking companies don't uphold appeals as they don't have to - and cancelling charges means they don't get paid...

It is not recommended to ignore though as this could be viewed as 'unreasonable'.

The pictures of the signs looks like they are pants. They need to prominent to form a contract.

Ultimately, they have 6 years to commence a claim. I have no statistics on VARS making claims but that doesn't mean they won't, eventually.


So could it be worth appealing based on the signage?

And would it be worth stating that you have to actually enter the car park to read the T&C's? or would the time taken to read the T&C's be included in the maximum parking time?

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DWMB2
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 20:25
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QUOTE (DeterminedMan469 @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 20:06) *
And would it be worth stating that you have to actually enter the car park to read the T&C's? or would the time taken to read the T&C's be included in the maximum parking time?

You almost always have to enter the car park to read the T&Cs. The BPA code of practice requires a 5 minute 'consideration' period after entering the car park, to give the driver time to read the signs and decide whether or not to accept the terms, or decline them and leave.

They will almost certainly reject any appeal but it's nevertheless worth doing, as Jlc says to appear reasonable if the matter ends up in court.

As well as the poor signage (they certainly don't look prominent, and with that entrance sign positioned on the car wash, it's arguable that a driver could easily not spot the sign, especially if heading to the pumps first before parking up), they have failed to give the invitation to keeper required by 9(2)(e) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act in the prescribed format, in order to hold the keeper liable. It's arguably a 'small' failure but worth mentioning.

And once they reject you can appeal to POPLA on signage, POFA as mentioned above, and their standing to issue charges on the site (come back here for advice on that).


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ostell
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 20:26
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Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to give the invitation to keeper in the format prescribed by section 9 (2) (e) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

I do not expect to hear from you again, or your debt collectors, except to confirm that no further action will be taken on this matter and my personal details have been removed from your records.

Yours etc


First class post with free certificate of posting a post office
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DeterminedMan469
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 22:13
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QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 20:25) *
You almost always have to enter the car park to read the T&Cs. The BPA code of practice requires a 5 minute 'consideration' period after entering the car park, to give the driver time to read the signs and decide whether or not to accept the terms, or decline them and leave.

They will almost certainly reject any appeal but it's nevertheless worth doing, as Jlc says to appear reasonable if the matter ends up in court.

As well as the poor signage (they certainly don't look prominent, and with that entrance sign positioned on the car wash, it's arguable that a driver could easily not spot the sign, especially if heading to the pumps first before parking up), they have failed to give the invitation to keeper required by 9(2)(e) of Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act in the prescribed format, in order to hold the keeper liable. It's arguably a 'small' failure but worth mentioning.

And once they reject you can appeal to POPLA on signage, POFA as mentioned above, and their standing to issue charges on the site (come back here for advice on that).

Would POPLA likely accept the appeal based on these arguments? and if they reject, would I be expected to pay the full amount of £100 or the reduced amount?
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 22:35
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A popla appeal,isn't solely that argument
If you explain pofa well enough to the idiot assessors, then it's got a great chance of success
You'd be expected to pay £100, however the decision does not bind YOU
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The Rookie
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 08:36
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Edit post #4 so as not to give away the RKs relationship to the driver, ‘the driver’ drove, you are the RK.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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DeterminedMan469
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 20:00
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 3 Dec 2021 - 22:35) *
A popla appeal,isn't solely that argument
If you explain pofa well enough to the idiot assessors, then it's got a great chance of success
You'd be expected to pay £100, however the decision does not bind YOU

Does POFA apply in this case? I've had a look at other cases on here and some NTK's are quite poor in addressing POFA as required. The NTK I received has a whole section on the back that seems to cover it? Or have they still failed to apply 9(2)(e) correctly as stated by DWMB2 and ostell?
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DWMB2
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 20:14
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9(2)(e) is as follows:

9(2)The notice must—
(e)state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—
(i)to pay the unpaid parking charges; or
(ii)if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver;

The bit in bold is not present in their wording on your notice. As I say, a fairly 'minor' fail that POPLA might not consider sufficient to cancel the charge in its own right when it gets there, but worth including as part of a multi-pronged approach.

This post has been edited by DWMB2: Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 20:15


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The Rookie
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 21:46
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No PoFA does not apply in this case as they failed to follow the requirements, that’s the WHOLE point!

If PoFA did apply (because they met the requirements) then the keeper could be held liable for the driver’s actions IF they driver owed anything.

I’m not sure you understand PoFA with your question.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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hcandersen
post Sat, 4 Dec 2021 - 22:49
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The vehicle entered at 13:01 and exited at 14:42

With regards to the drivers overstay, food was purchased from BP and consumed within the car.


I'm not swallowing this, neither would any judge. Come on.

As for signs: and how the hell anyone could conclude that 'the display of one or more notices' was not present in the area simply by viewing a distant street view snapshot.......

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