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[NIP Wizard] Received NIP but live abroad - what to do?
Slithy Tove
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 00:14
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - July 2018
Date of the NIP: - 13 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 15 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - Wolverhampton Road, Kidderminster t/w Wolverhampton
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Hire car
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I live in Thailand and was in the UK in July for my mother's 100th birthday. I rented a car whilst in the UK and must have been flashed.
I only remember being on the road in question but not which day. It is possible that I was there on that day. Also, I have no idea just where the offence took place on the road in question - it's pretty long.
However, I have no knowledge of the UK speeding system but see that I could do a speed awareness course which is obviously impractical.
The only other option I seem to have is to admit to the offence which I can only assume I committed, but not being used to driving on UK roads, I really could not say what speed I was doing (I am used to kms/hour) or exactly where the offence occurred as I said above. Also, my recollection of the road is that it was a 40 mph limit but that seems to have changed - I would not have known that as I only visit once a year and this is the first time in that area for maybe 10 years.
It seems unfair that not being resident in the country, I am denied one of the options and have to go for a self-conviction.
I suppose I don't really mind paying the fine just to get this thing out of my hair, but after a month in the UK I am a bit broke. Can I pay by instalments? I am 69 years ol and a pensioner with no other income. I have just spent most of my savings on a month long trip to the UK and have very little money left to pay a fine with but obviously, going on a speed awareness course is impractical. As I only have the option of admitting the offence and paying a fine, that seems unfair just because I live abroad.
And MUST I send in my UK licence? I am not really sure where it is because everything is all over the place after our trip. Will a copy do? I have a scan of it on my computer.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 00:14:12 +0000

This post has been edited by Slithy Tove: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 01:19
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post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 00:14
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 05:17
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Has this come to a Thai address or UK?

If you provide a Thai address and show you are an expat they may well just drop it, points would be meaningless and impossible to enforce unless you were caught on return to the UK.

You can’t pay the £100 fixed penalty in instalments (the course would have cost the same and you can’t pay that in stages either), no.


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Slithy Tove
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 07:31
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 12:17) *
Has this come to a Thai address or UK?

If you provide a Thai address and show you are an expat they may well just drop it, points would be meaningless and impossible to enforce unless you were caught on return to the UK.

You can’t pay the £100 fixed penalty in instalments (the course would have cost the same and you can’t pay that in stages either), no.


Thanks for the reply. It came to the UK address of a friend which I use for the occasional correspondence I get in the UK. He scanned and emailed it to me, all SIX pages of it! The speed camera office will have contacted the car hire company and they will have passed on my licence details.

Yes, I was hoping that I could call them and explain the situation and that they may just think it's all too much trouble. At a push, I can send them copies of my last 3 passports which shows that I have lived here since 2004, but that might also have an effect on my UK licence. I think living abroad might invalidate it, not 100% sure.

Shame I couldn't pay the fine over a couple of months. My last trip past month cost me about £5,000 and I'd have liked a little breathing space.

Do you think it's worth phoning them or writing to explain?

This post has been edited by Slithy Tove: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 07:33
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Churchmouse
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 09:51
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Unless you want to try the "I actually live abroad, nya, nya, nya" approach (which might work), borrow the money from someone to pay the FPN. All things considered, it's possibly the cheapest way out, and the three points and insurance implications would be meaningless for you.

The address on your driving licence just needs to be one where you can be reached, so I don't know on what grounds it could be revoked due to where you live.

--Churchmouse
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Slithy Tove
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 10:04
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 16:51) *
Unless you want to try the "I actually live abroad, nya, nya, nya" approach (which might work), borrow the money from someone to pay the FPN. All things considered, it's possibly the cheapest way out, and the three points and insurance implications would be meaningless for you.

The address on your driving licence just needs to be one where you can be reached, so I don't know on what grounds it could be revoked due to where you live.

--Churchmouse


I don't need to borrow the money - I can manage £100 OK but I am on a parsimonious kick at the moment having just got back from the UK 12 days ago. That's almost certainly what I will do if, after trying to sweet-talk the issuing office, it hasn't worked.

Yes, the points would be meaningless but it's just possible that the car hire would rise next year due to possible increased insurance. That's assuming they check my licence, of course. I hire a car from them every year and AFAIK, they just copy my licence details over from the previous year.

I had thought that a UK licence could only be issued to a UK resident, but checking on an ex-pat website it appears not. They can't make a change of address to a foreign country though so you need to have somewhere where you can be reached, as I have done.

Out of interest, what would a traffic office do if the driver of a hire car was say, French, German or some other nationality on holiday?

This post has been edited by Slithy Tove: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 11:04
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Redivi
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 10:28
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Yes, the points would be meaningless but it's just possible that the car hire would rise next year due to possible increased insurance. That's assuming they check my licence, of course. I hire a car from them every year and AFAIK, they just copy my licence details over from the previous year.

A few years ago, hire companies didn't like to see points on a licence
With the rise of speed cameras, they take no notice of three points

My daughter was a branch manager of a hire company and commented that it was becoming uncommon to see a clean licence

Out of interest, what would a traffic office do if the driver of a hire car was say, French, German or some other nationality on holiday?

The DVLA creates a dummy licence and puts the points to it
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 10:33
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Reply giving them your Thai address, I’d also include some evidence you are geuniunely an expat (for example in India you’d have a residency permit you could copy to them) as they are naturally going to be suspicious, if they try and enforce you can then make a call on whether to accept or not, if they don’t you’ve already won. There should be no risk in that at all.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Slithy Tove
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 11:01
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:33) *
Reply giving them your Thai address, I’d also include some evidence you are geuniunely an expat (for example in India you’d have a residency permit you could copy to them) as they are naturally going to be suspicious, if they try and enforce you can then make a call on whether to accept or not, if they don’t you’ve already won. There should be no risk in that at all.


Thanks. I don't have a resident's permit but I do have a series of retirement visas going back years in my various passports from 2004.

I also have official letters from HMRC, the Pension Service and UK insurance providers all with my Thai address on them so there's very little room for doubt.

However, some hopeful news. I called the issuing CTO and explained my dilemma, who were very helpful. They asked me to put everything in an email with copies of evidence of my status and they would pass it on to their reviewing staff. Fingers crossed.

I mentioned that I would not have the option available to UK residents of doing a speed awareness course and that points would be meaningless to which the chappie sounded quite in agreement. But who knows?

This post has been edited by Slithy Tove: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 11:02
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The Rookie
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 12:33
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The camera offices are pragmatic, it sounds like you’ll get a good result.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Slithy Tove
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 13:03
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 19:33) *
The camera offices are pragmatic, it sounds like you’ll get a good result.


That's good to know. The chap sounded very sympathetic.
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Churchmouse
post Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 17:14
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QUOTE (Slithy Tove @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 11:04) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 16:51) *
Unless you want to try the "I actually live abroad, nya, nya, nya" approach (which might work), borrow the money from someone to pay the FPN. All things considered, it's possibly the cheapest way out, and the three points and insurance implications would be meaningless for you.

The address on your driving licence just needs to be one where you can be reached, so I don't know on what grounds it could be revoked due to where you live.

--Churchmouse


I don't need to borrow the money - I can manage £100 OK but I am on a parsimonious kick at the moment having just got back from the UK 12 days ago. That's almost certainly what I will do if, after trying to sweet-talk the issuing office, it hasn't worked.

Yes, the points would be meaningless but it's just possible that the car hire would rise next year due to possible increased insurance. That's assuming they check my licence, of course. I hire a car from them every year and AFAIK, they just copy my licence details over from the previous year.

I had thought that a UK licence could only be issued to a UK resident, but checking on an ex-pat website it appears not. They can't make a change of address to a foreign country though so you need to have somewhere where you can be reached, as I have done.

Out of interest, what would a traffic office do if the driver of a hire car was say, French, German or some other nationality on holiday?

Sounds like you've got it in hand now. Good luck.

Obtaining a driving licence may require some sort of residency, but retaining it does not. I've often wondered if your legal obligations could be satisfied by "notifying" the DVLA of your foreign address--regardless of whether the DVLA wished to process the information or not...

--Churchmouse
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Slithy Tove
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 01:18
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 00:14) *
QUOTE (Slithy Tove @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 11:04) *
QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Mon, 13 Aug 2018 - 16:51) *
Unless you want to try the "I actually live abroad, nya, nya, nya" approach (which might work), borrow the money from someone to pay the FPN. All things considered, it's possibly the cheapest way out, and the three points and insurance implications would be meaningless for you.

The address on your driving licence just needs to be one where you can be reached, so I don't know on what grounds it could be revoked due to where you live.

--Churchmouse


I don't need to borrow the money - I can manage £100 OK but I am on a parsimonious kick at the moment having just got back from the UK 12 days ago. That's almost certainly what I will do if, after trying to sweet-talk the issuing office, it hasn't worked.

Yes, the points would be meaningless but it's just possible that the car hire would rise next year due to possible increased insurance. That's assuming they check my licence, of course. I hire a car from them every year and AFAIK, they just copy my licence details over from the previous year.

I had thought that a UK licence could only be issued to a UK resident, but checking on an ex-pat website it appears not. They can't make a change of address to a foreign country though so you need to have somewhere where you can be reached, as I have done.

Out of interest, what would a traffic office do if the driver of a hire car was say, French, German or some other nationality on holiday?

Sounds like you've got it in hand now. Good luck.

Obtaining a driving licence may require some sort of residency, but retaining it does not. I've often wondered if your legal obligations could be satisfied by "notifying" the DVLA of your foreign address--regardless of whether the DVLA wished to process the information or not...

--Churchmouse


Thanks. I just need to waste a day writing an email and scanning my passport and other documents now. From the comments made by the helpful chap I spoke to yesterday I think I may be OK. Fingers crossed.

I have never told the DVLA that I live abroad as I wasn't certain what might happen if I did. I need to renew it in January anyway as I shall hit 70. I use my pal's address and I am still registered at my old GP because of that. I am not quite certain what happens about renewal but I may need a GP's letter at some stage which is why I stayed on their books.

This post has been edited by Slithy Tove: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 01:18
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666
post Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 05:51
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OP, regardless of the outcome, you will almost certainly find that the hire company have charged your credit card with an "admin fee" for handling this. Usually around £30.
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Slithy Tove
post Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 14:10
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QUOTE (666 @ Tue, 14 Aug 2018 - 12:51) *
OP, regardless of the outcome, you will almost certainly find that the hire company have charged your credit card with an "admin fee" for handling this. Usually around £30.


Nope. I didn't use a credit card. Never do, always cash. I've used them for over 30 years on and off and every year for the last 10 years for between 2 and 4 weeks each time. Anyway, the manager is a friend. Not a chance.

This post has been edited by Slithy Tove: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 - 14:12
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Slithy Tove
post Tue, 21 Aug 2018 - 00:33
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Thanks to all who responded.

I am pleased to say that after sending an email explaining my situation, I received this email from the relevant CTO (West Mercia) yesterday -

'Dear Sir

I can confirm as you reside outside of the UK no further action will be taken on this occasion. Please be mindful of the speed limits on your next visit to the UK.

Regards '


So that's all good now, and I can take a little bit of a finger-wagging! :-)



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