Issued with PCN but does appealing legitimise the ticket?, * Update * Appeal Rejected. Options

[Z3006]

Hey guys,
I was issued with a Parking Charge Notice through ANPR early last month which was wrongly issued. I left the car park immediately after entering because i didn't want to pay and parked on a lane outside instead, outside of their jurisdiction. sometime later I then drove back through the car park to get to the main road and go home. They've taken the time between the first entry and last exit as time i was parked which i wasn't.

I'm under the impression that if i go through the appeal process i am acknowledging the legitimacy of the ticket which i have no intention of doing whatsoever. the terms of the car park state if i was to wait, park or remain on the car park then i agree to comply with the parking contract. i left the car park within a minute of arriving and therefore did not comply with the contract and cannot be issued a fine.

Is officially appealing the right thing to do or should I do more of an unofficial appeal stating my refusal to pay and my reasons?

thanks in advance.

Zee.

This post has been edited by Z3006: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 19:43

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[Jlc]

I'm under the impression that if i go through the appeal process i am acknowledging the legitimacy of the ticket which i have no intention of doing whatsoever.

Complete hogwash that I’ve seen 'on the Internet'.

First things first, who issued the charge?

[ostell]

This is a "double Dip" whereby the processing fails to identify the first exit or second entry, unless there were no cameras on the exit that you left by the first time to park in the lane.

Location of the site so that GSV can be used to see the location of the cameras.

[Z3006]

I'm under the impression that if i go through the appeal process i am acknowledging the legitimacy of the ticket which i have no intention of doing whatsoever.

Complete hogwash that I’ve seen 'on the Internet'.

First things first, who issued the charge?

I read that on Money Saving Expert. The PPC is Parking Eye.

This is a "double Dip" whereby the processing fails to identify the first exit or second entry, unless there were no cameras on the exit that you left by the first time to park in the lane.

Location of the site so that GSV can be used to see the location of the cameras.

There is a camera on both exits as the camera that caught me entering somehow didn't catch me leaving again a minute later through the same entrance. The site is the car park of the Brittania Airport Inn at Manchester Airport.

[ostell]

So you went past the same camera?

[Jlc]

I read that on Money Saving Expert. The PPC is Parking Eye.

As I said, complete hogwash. When ParkingEye sue you and you've completely ignored them how do you think the court will see that? (Especially since there was a simple error that can be resolved by 'appealing')

Does the back of the PCN mention 'Protection of Freedoms Act'? (Not that it matters as there's no cause but it can make an appeal easier)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 - 07:44

[Z3006]

So you went past the same camera?

Yes, there are two cameras one on each entrance/exit either side of the car park. I came in through one entrance and left through the same entrance less than a minute later.

I read that on Money Saving Expert. The PPC is Parking Eye.

As I said, complete hogwash. When ParkingEye sue you and you've completely ignored them how do you think the court will see that? (Especially since there was a simple error that can be resolved by 'appealing')

Does the back of the PCN mention 'Protection of Freedoms Act'? (Not that it matters as there's no cause but it can make an appeal easier)

I wasn't intending to ignore them completley I was going to go with option 2 on MSE which is to not follow the lines of appeal and simply refuse to pay and state my reasons.

I'm at work at the moment but will look at the PCN when I return home.

Edit: just had the missus send me an image and yes it does mention the Protection of Freedoms act on the back.

This post has been edited by Z3006: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 - 08:43

[Dave65]

There are a number of threads on here covering "double dips".
Do a search in the top right corner box for double dips it will give you some ideas of what goes on.

[Z3006]

There are a number of threads on here covering "double dips".
Do a search in the top right corner box for double dips it will give you some ideas of what goes on.

I have seen a few posts here and there that explain the same thing happening but a lot of situations are easily resolved by a receipt bought elsewhere or proving on your Google location that you left the area. I've done neither as I stayed in the area next to car park.

[Jlc]

Edit: just had the missus send me an image and yes it does mention the Protection of Freedoms act on the back.

Ok, that's the easy technical win gone.

I have seen a few posts here and there that explain the same thing happening but a lot of situations are easily resolved by a receipt bought elsewhere or proving on your Google location that you left the area. I've done neither as I stayed in the area next to car park.

Appeal:

Ref ****

I have received the above parking notice.

The vehicle was not parked at the location for this period.

Your defective ANPR system has incorrectly recorded two visits and you have accessed my details on the registered keeper database without reasonable cause.

Cancel the parking notice within seven days or I will complain to the DVLA about your action.

I wasn't intending to ignore them completley I was going to go with option 2 on MSE which is to not follow the lines of appeal and simply refuse to pay and state my reasons.

You have to 'play along' with their arbitrary appeal system. It's a charge for an alleged breach of contract - 'appealing' doesn't change it's legitimacy*.


* I have seen posts where some claim that by not follow their appeal system somehow invalidates it, but that's not the case. Ultimately (if it went that far) the Judge would have to decide on the balance of probabilities whether the contract was formed and is payable. Do you have tracking on your phone for example? (Many record your movements and a history...)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 - 11:16

[Z3006]

Edit: just had the missus send me an image and yes it does mention the Protection of Freedoms act on the back.

Ok, that's the easy technical win gone.

I have seen a few posts here and there that explain the same thing happening but a lot of situations are easily resolved by a receipt bought elsewhere or proving on your Google location that you left the area. I've done neither as I stayed in the area next to car park.

Appeal:

Ref ****

I have received the above parking notice.

The vehicle was not parked at the location for this period.

Your defective ANPR system has incorrectly recorded two visits and you have accessed my details on the registered keeper database without reasonable cause.

Cancel the parking notice within seven days or I will complain to the DVLA about your action.

I wasn't intending to ignore them completley I was going to go with option 2 on MSE which is to not follow the lines of appeal and simply refuse to pay and state my reasons.

You have to 'play along' with their arbitrary appeal system. It's a charge for an alleged breach of contract - 'appealing' doesn't change it's legitimacy*.


* I have seen posts where some claim that by not follow their appeal system somehow invalidates it, but that's not the case. Ultimately (if it went that far) the Judge would have to decide on the balance of probabilities whether the contract was formed and is payable. Do you have tracking on your phone for example? (Many record your movements and a history...)

With regards to the appeal is it best to keep it as simple as possible the way you've written it or should I go into a little detail on how the mistake was made?

Also, is it best to tell them I'll be contacting the land owner (Hotel) over the issue too?

Edit: sorry for quoting half a page, I'm on my phone and it's a little hard!

This post has been edited by Z3006: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 - 13:51

[Jlc]

With regards to the appeal is it best to keep it as simple as possible the way you've written it or should I go into a little detail on how the mistake was made?

The above appeal has worked in the past. But there's probably no harm in elaborating with specifics - post something here first for critique?

[Z3006]

With regards to the appeal is it best to keep it as simple as possible the way you've written it or should I go into a little detail on how the mistake was made?

The above appeal has worked in the past. But there's probably no harm in elaborating with specifics - post something here first for critique?

Dear Sir or Madam,

Ticket number: *****
Vehicle registration number: *****

You issued me with a parking ticket on **/**/2020 but I believe it was unfairly issued for the following reason.

• The vehicle was not parked on the land in question
You issued a ticket for supposedly breaking your parking restrictions, yet the vehicle was parked on the lane leading into the car park which isn’t under the enforcement of your company meaning you had no authority to issue a ticket. I fully acknowledge the fact I entered the car park at **:**, however, after realising I had to pay to park, I then left the car park through the same entrance and parked roughly 5 metres down the lane away from the entrance. The lane in question has absolutely no floor markings or signs of any kind to show that it falls under your company’s enforcement or any enforcement at all for that matter.

Around 4 hours later when I departed the lane, I drove back through the entrance of your car park and out of the second entrance onto the A538 and left the area. This is clearly a mistake in the ANPR cameras failure to recognise my vehicle leaving and re-entering the car park. I request that your company re-checks the ANPR cameras and CCTV footage of the **/**/2020 to find all captures of my registration **** ***.

As I did not ‘wait, park or remain within the car park’ as stated in the car parks terms and conditions I did not agree or comply with the parking contract and therefore have been wrongly issued with a parking charge.


I've drafted this so feel free to critique and give advice on any parts that aren't necessary or parts that should be left out. I've redacted information to protect my identity from any prying eyes.

[ostell]

Not unfairly issued more like incorrectly issued

You rejected their offer of a contract and left

This is an obvious example of a so called "double dip" as it is known within the trade



Unfortunately there will be no CCTV as such.

This post has been edited by ostell: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 - 20:34

[Z3006]

Not unfairly issued more like incorrectly issued

You rejected their offer of a contract and left

This is an obvious example of a so called "double dip" as it is known within the trade



Unfortunately there will be no CCTV as such.

Yeah I'm not expecting the CCTV to get me far really but surely i wouldn't be asking them to review the CCTV if I had actually left my car there for 4 hours

Bit of a psychology trick maybe?

[The Rookie]

If there is no CCTV how, prey, do they review it.

You need to appear informed, asking them to do something an informed person knows they cannot do makes you appear badly informed, that’s the correct psychological trick.

[Z3006]

If there is no CCTV how, prey, do they review it.

You need to appear informed, asking them to do something an informed person knows they cannot do makes you appear badly informed, that’s the correct psychological trick.

OK ill take that bit out, what about asking for them to check the captures of my reg from the Anpr? That's surely something they can do?

[The Rookie]

It is, but if its only recorded the 1 entry and exit (as logically that's all it did do) then that won't help either will it?

You could ask them to check all similar reg numbers, but that's a major task and its possible if your plate was masked there isn't one anyway, so again you may ask them to do something that actually helps them.

So no, I wouldn't ask them to check anything at all, instead just inform them of the error and that you require them to cancel. Send a copy of any evidence you have that may prove you left and returned.

[Z3006]

* UPDATE *

So i appealed the charge on the 3rd of this month and have just received a rejection letter from Parking Eye. So now i go onto POPLA. I find it strange because they haven't addressed any of the points raised in my appeal and have instead simply stated "Our records confirm that no parking was purchased on the date of the parking event, despite there being payment methods available on the day in question"

Not once in my appeal did i state i paid or even tried to pay for parking. I told them I drove onto the site and left the site immediately and parked off road. This seems like an automated rejection letter and that they haven't even fully investigated my appeal.

I also found this on parkingcowboys.co.uk

Friend of the site, the Parking Prankster, recently fought a Highview Parking ticket on this very point. He visited the car park in question twice in one day, yet got issued a ticket. His first stage appeal, direct to Highview, was rejected, despite stating he was not there for the entire time. So, he took them to a POPLA appeal which he WON. This point was not lost on the POPLA assessor, who cited it as the reason to uphold his appeal:

The Operator has not responded to the Appellant’s submission that although he did enter the site at 10.10, he left the site before returning again later in the day and then leaving for the second time at 15.55. For example, the Operator could have provided a search for all the images of the vehicle with registration mark [redacted] taken on the date in question

This is my situation to a tee. Parking Eye have simply glossed over the fact that I admit to entering the site but leaving immediately after and returning 4 hours later.

also, there is this on the BPA's own website.

a) Repeat users of a car park inside a 24 hour period sometimes find that their first entry is paired with their last exit, resulting in an ‘overstay’. Operators are becoming aware of this and should now be checking all ANPR transactions to ensure that this does not occur.

Something Parking Eye have clearly not done with the request in my appeal.

[Jlc]

Something Parking Eye have clearly not done with the request in my appeal.

The usual MO is for you to do all the leg work and submit a comprehensive POPLA appeal for them to simply not contest.

After all an accepted appeal will never see income... Cynical but true - there was secret filming done at a PPC where they were caught saying, "We never read appeals, we just make something up and reject them".