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Parking charge notice - not pofa compliant?
brian765
post Sat, 28 Jan 2023 - 09:25
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Hi all,

As registered keeper, I received a letter this week from Smart Parking alleging that the driver of my vehicle overstayed the 2 hour period allowed on a car park they claim to manage.

Date of alleged event was 30/12/22 with the letter being issued on 18/01/23 and received 24/01/23.

Letter does not mention pofa criteria anywhere and with being issued more than 14 days after, based on what I have read on here, they cannot transfer liability to me as RK? I have seen ostells template on here for this. Is a response to smart parking using that template the best course of action here?

I will add a redacted version of the letter once I figure out how to upload, as they are too big to attach directly and Imgur doesn't seem to like my phone number for registering an account. Any other recommended image hosts?

Thanks in advance!

This post has been edited by brian765: Sat, 28 Jan 2023 - 09:45
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post Sat, 28 Jan 2023 - 09:25
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Jlc
post Sat, 28 Jan 2023 - 10:14
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Yup, this template:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Parking Charge Notice xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc



--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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brian765
post Sat, 28 Jan 2023 - 10:18
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Sat, 28 Jan 2023 - 10:14) *
Yup, this template:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Parking Charge Notice xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc


Thank you Jlc for confirming, appreciated. Did quite a bit of research on here over the past few days before posting and wanted to confirm understanding is correct.
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Redx
post Sat, 28 Jan 2023 - 11:21
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For pictures hosting, try postimg or imgbb or a similar hosting site instead of imgur
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hcandersen
post Sun, 29 Jan 2023 - 17:33
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You posted: Letter does not mention pofa criteria

Then the template is inapplicable, you're claiming they cannot do something they're not trying to do.

Why not post the PCN both sides deleting only personal data then we can see what's what.
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brian765
post Sun, 29 Jan 2023 - 20:58
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Thanks guys, have managed to upload to postimg, hopefully these links work.





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hcandersen
post Mon, 30 Jan 2023 - 08:06
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As you can see, they are not pursuing the keeper for anything.

Thank you for your PCN **** dated ******.

I note that you state that the driver is liable for a parking charge for the reasons set out in the PCN but you do not know their details. I am sorry, but as keeper I cannot help you in this regard.

Don't try and legitimise their claim by making PoFA references.

But if they were to respond by suggesting that your 'appeal' has been rejected and then waffle on about POPLA then you could add date of service of the PCN to the string of other cast-iron defence arguments available to you.
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brian765
post Mon, 30 Jan 2023 - 14:07
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 30 Jan 2023 - 08:06) *
As you can see, they are not pursuing the keeper for anything.

Thank you for your PCN **** dated ******.

I note that you state that the driver is liable for a parking charge for the reasons set out in the PCN but you do not know their details. I am sorry, but as keeper I cannot help you in this regard.

Don't try and legitimise their claim by making PoFA references.

But if they were to respond by suggesting that your 'appeal' has been rejected and then waffle on about POPLA then you could add date of service of the PCN to the string of other cast-iron defence arguments available to you.


Thanks for your response and input. Why would making PoFA references legitimise their claim in your opinion?

Never submitted one of these before, if they reject the initial appeal do you have further opportunity to appeal with the PPC, or do you have to go to POPLA at that point?

Is it recommended to appeal online or in writing from experience?
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hcandersen
post Mon, 30 Jan 2023 - 14:19
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Why would making PoFA references legitimise their claim in your opinion?

Because it doesn't refer to PoFA. To follow your logic you could just as well refer to the Magna Carta or the Declaration of Independence...

Just go back to them referring to what they have said in the notice or whatever other suggestions might come forward.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 30 Jan 2023 - 14:29
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QUOTE (brian765 @ Mon, 30 Jan 2023 - 14:07) *
Why would making PoFA references legitimise their claim in your opinion?

It doesn't, but nor do an absence of it.

The Notice either complies with PoFA or it does not, what it says about complying with PoFA isn't relevant to that (and to comply with PoFA it doesn't have to mention PoFA).

PPC's will often use weasel words to try and confuse, such as 'our notices aren't issued under PoFA' when you tell them it's not PoFA compliant as if that somehow then makes you liable when it changes nothing.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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brian765
post Mon, 30 Jan 2023 - 20:50
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Thanks both for your input
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Nosy Parker
post Thu, 2 Feb 2023 - 07:20
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I don’t agree that pointing out that they are unable to transfer liability to the keeper somehow legitimises anything they have or haven’t done. I would reply as follows.

“I am appealing as keeper. I am not obliged to tell you who was driving and I decline to do so. As you are not able to transfer liability to me as keeper because your notice is not compliant with the legislation (commonly known as “POFA”) governing transfer of liability to keepers, please cancel the PCN and delete my personal information from your data base as you have no legitimate reason for holding it”
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brian765
post Thu, 2 Feb 2023 - 11:43
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QUOTE (Nosy Parker @ Thu, 2 Feb 2023 - 07:20) *
I don’t agree that pointing out that they are unable to transfer liability to the keeper somehow legitimises anything they have or haven’t done. I would reply as follows.

“I am appealing as keeper. I am not obliged to tell you who was driving and I decline to do so. As you are not able to transfer liability to me as keeper because your notice is not compliant with the legislation (commonly known as “POFA”) governing transfer of liability to keepers, please cancel the PCN and delete my personal information from your data base as you have no legitimate reason for holding it”


Thanks for your post. I am inclined to agree, it feels better to cover that aspect proactively in the hope it will quash any further attempt for the PPC to reject the initial response or continue to chase it. I'd rather settle this in one fell swoop than back and forth plus POPLA etc.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 2 Feb 2023 - 12:00
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There is no POFA legislation for PCNs issued other than under POFA.

Therefore the PCN IS compliant with legislation - the BPA CoP refers to 7 months but this is not a legislative requirement - because there isn't any which specifies matters.

So there is no keeper liability because this is not referred to in the PCN. And if there isn't, the keeper cannot object to it!

The notice says what it says,

It's an invoice comprised within a notice which gives contextual info, in this case that they believe that the driver is liable and would the keeper like to tell them who this is or tell the driver before the creditor's financial demand increases.

Thank you for your notice the contents of which I have noted.....etc.

But OP you must do what you prefer.

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brian765
post Wed, 15 Feb 2023 - 17:28
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Just wanted to say a huge thanks to everyone who posted above and provided input. Received a letter today from Smart Parking confirming they are cancelling the parking charge. Many thanks all!
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