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Any good at Maths?, Triangulation question
Lynnzer
post Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 19:21
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I'm a bit old to remember my maths days so would appreciate a knowledgeable answer to what should be a simple question.
I'll paint the picture so it has more meaning.

I'm trying to prepare for a case where the defendant will take an A4 sign printed out on cardboard.
That would make it 29.7 cm high
The original sign is 59.6 cm high
The distance from the driver to the original sign is 8 metres
How far from the driver would the A4 sign be to keep in exact scale along the triangulation to the original sign?

The idea is to show how the original sign would look at the triangulated distance by having a judge compare it to the A4 copy at the scaled distance.
Get the idea?


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post Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 19:21
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The Rookie
post Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 19:43
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29.7/59.6x8=3.987 metres (4).


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mickR
post Sun, 9 Aug 2020 - 21:06
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Surely you would be half the distance away. Ie 4mtrs.... being that the A4 sign is half the size of the original??
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Lynnzer
post Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 08:19
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Thanks Guys. Exactly what I thought but the equation from rookie is what I was after.
Wonder what's going on?
Look at my post here.


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The Rookie
post Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 10:27
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Yes I realised it was related to that post.

The one thing you have to ensure for this to work is the quality of your printed sign, poor quality printing (fuzzy edges) would negatively impact it as a valid comparison.


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oldstoat
post Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 11:03
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If this relates to the other post. You state that the signage is exactly A2 in size.

Therefore A4 is actually 1/4 the size of A2, in area and therefore the font sizes on your mockup of the signage would need to be 1/4 the height of those on the sign. So if the Main size lettering is 120mm or 338point then on a reduced mock up you would need to use 84point and if the t&c on the signage are in 60mm or 169 point then the mock up would need to be in 42point

for example 72point text is 1inch tall

This post has been edited by oldstoat: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 11:27


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Tartarus
post Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 15:59
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A quarter of the area, yes, but half the length and width compared to A2. So the original answer of 4m stands, you would need a font size half that on the A2 sign, and by virtue assuming similar legibility etc, would need to be half the distance away to read it to the same degree.
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Lynnzer
post Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 17:15
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You know I was a financial adviser once and could work out the cost of a mortgage including Mortgage Interest Relief in my head. I also studied calculus as a pastime when serving in the middle east. Age does terrible things. Anyway I worked the 4m myself but needed reassurance.
In any case I have now printed an A4 for the distance of 4m and an A5 for 2m. They really are so unreadable and I think it should be standard practice to take these things into court as evidence to show that they are just not big enough for a driver to be bound by the T & C's.


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Slapdash
post Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 18:12
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I do not believe, however, that a sign half the size is necessarily as easy to read as a sign twice the size at twice the distance. Depth perspective will play a part.

There are recommended font sizes for readability at distance. A rule of thumb used to 1" of height per 10ft of required readability.

Another point is that if the sign is exoectd to be read whilst moving the effective rate of change on the half distance sign is twice that if the sign were twice as far away (ie it gets bigger twice as quickly - more complex than that though. This is part of the reason why it's a bit of an apples and pears comparison (and why signage is more difficult to read whilst moving)

This post has been edited by Slapdash: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 18:36
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mickR
post Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 18:49
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QUOTE (Slapdash @ Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 19:12) *
(and why signage is more difficult to read whilst moving)

Especially if your looking where youre driving and not at a fu@king miniscule sign!
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big_mac
post Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 19:58
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Why wouldn't you take one at the correct size?
That's surely a simpler argument than trying to convince a judge of the maths?
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mickR
post Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 20:26
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QUOTE (big_mac @ Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 20:58) *
Why wouldn't you take one at the correct size?
That's surely a simpler argument than trying to convince a judge of the maths?


Because it might not be possible to place it 8m (26') from the judge ? rolleyes.gif
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Lynnzer
post Tue, 11 Aug 2020 - 04:31
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QUOTE (mickR @ Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 21:26) *
QUOTE (big_mac @ Mon, 10 Aug 2020 - 20:58) *
Why wouldn't you take one at the correct size?
That's surely a simpler argument than trying to convince a judge of the maths?


Because it might not be possible to place it 8m (26') from the judge ? rolleyes.gif

My recollection is that the chambers at Middlesbrough County Court were really small. I'd guess they would be 4 metres from the judges seat to the back wall. Don't know if he'd be happy with blue tack on the wall though.


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rosturra
post Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 12:59
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Would a Judge ever be persuaded to exit the chamber and look at Full size mock up of sign in the corridor? Or the car park?

I'm sure I've read in newspaper about judges and juries going to scene of crime, to aid deliberation. Same principle.
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southpaw82
post Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 13:21
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QUOTE (rosturra @ Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 13:59) *
Would a Judge ever be persuaded to exit the chamber and look at Full size mock up of sign in the corridor? Or the car park?

I'm sure I've read in newspaper about judges and juries going to scene of crime, to aid deliberation. Same principle.

Yes - so long as they can be convinced that it is proportionate and helpful. Don’t forget, both parties have to attend as well. The costs of doing so start to get disproportionate for a £100-odd claim.


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cp8759
post Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 15:01
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 14:21) *
QUOTE (rosturra @ Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 13:59) *
Would a Judge ever be persuaded to exit the chamber and look at Full size mock up of sign in the corridor? Or the car park?

I'm sure I've read in newspaper about judges and juries going to scene of crime, to aid deliberation. Same principle.

Yes - so long as they can be convinced that it is proportionate and helpful. Don’t forget, both parties have to attend as well. The costs of doing so start to get disproportionate for a £100-odd claim.

If a corridor in the court building can be used, there should be no costs at all, surely? Even going to the court car park and back should only take a matter of minutes and can be dealt with by simply extending the allocation hearing time.

Of course whether a judge could be persuaded to bother with any of this is a different matter.


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southpaw82
post Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 16:52
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 16:01) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 14:21) *
QUOTE (rosturra @ Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 13:59) *
Would a Judge ever be persuaded to exit the chamber and look at Full size mock up of sign in the corridor? Or the car park?

I'm sure I've read in newspaper about judges and juries going to scene of crime, to aid deliberation. Same principle.

Yes - so long as they can be convinced that it is proportionate and helpful. Don’t forget, both parties have to attend as well. The costs of doing so start to get disproportionate for a £100-odd claim.

If a corridor in the court building can be used, there should be no costs at all, surely? Even going to the court car park and back should only take a matter of minutes and can be dealt with by simply extending the allocation hearing time.

Of course whether a judge could be persuaded to bother with any of this is a different matter.

I was referring to a site visit. Doing so in the near vicinity of the court shouldn’t be an issue - so long as the judge thinks it will be helpful and relevant.


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rosturra
post Thu, 20 Aug 2020 - 11:43
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QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 17:52) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 16:01) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 14:21) *
QUOTE (rosturra @ Mon, 17 Aug 2020 - 13:59) *
Would a Judge ever be persuaded to exit the chamber and look at Full size mock up of sign in the corridor? Or the car park?

I'm sure I've read in newspaper about judges and juries going to scene of crime, to aid deliberation. Same principle.

Yes - so long as they can be convinced that it is proportionate and helpful. Don’t forget, both parties have to attend as well. The costs of doing so start to get disproportionate for a £100-odd claim.

If a corridor in the court building can be used, there should be no costs at all, surely? Even going to the court car park and back should only take a matter of minutes and can be dealt with by simply extending the allocation hearing time.

Of course whether a judge could be persuaded to bother with any of this is a different matter.

I was referring to a site visit. Doing so in the near vicinity of the court shouldn’t be an issue - so long as the judge thinks it will be helpful and relevant.


The question has been answered, but I did mean the court car park!
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