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Important Notice on Postal Strike, Keep those envelopes, folks!
firefly
post Wed, 10 Oct 2007 - 12:47
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It is the opinion of top motoring lawyer Nick Freeman (sometimes called Mr Loophole) that the current postal strike invalidates NIPs that have not been received within 14-days, assuming it was the postal strike that caused the delay.

In this Radio 4 interview (click here: Realplayer audio: about 11 minutes 40 seconds in), he goes on to say what we at PePiPoo have been saying for a long time: that it is not the date of posting of the NIP that is crucial, but rather the delivery. Perhaps he's been reading this site. laugh.gif

QUOTE
Mr Freeman: “I can certainly see advantage from the motorists point of view. When a motorist goes through a camera the documentation must be sent in such time that it must be received in 14 days. And of course the problem now, particularly with rolling strikes these documents are typically sent by first class post. The probability is that unless the system is changed there going to arrive outside the 14 day period and that really means the motorist can admit that he or she was driving, committing and offence of speeding for example but those proceedings will be defective because the notice been sent and received within the 14 day period.”

Interviewer: “So it’s completely invalid?”

Mr Freeman: “It is. The proceeding will be void. The motorist will of course, there is a presumption that the documentation has been sent and received within 14 days and the burden is on the motorist to show on the balance of probabilities that it hasn’t been received. So he or she would have to give evidence, on oath possibly to that effect, write to the central ticket office “saying look I haven’t received this documentation in time” and that should completely void the procedure. So it would unfortunately for the authorities be of a massive advantage for the motorist. These things are hard to predict because it’s a rolling strike.”

Interviewer: “Is it going to amount to an amnesty?”

Freeman: “The motorist would be well advised to keep their envelopes with the stamps on and the date mark on so that they will be able to prove possible when they were sent and have some documentation to show when they were received. “


So the advice to all motorists who have received their NIPs late is to hold on to the envelopes that the NIPs arrive in. biggrin.gif

NOTE: The scammers will lie and say that it is not the date of receipt that is important, but the date of posting, so don't expect them to roll over straight away on this. Further updates will appear on this thread as and when.

This post has been edited by firefly: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 10:28


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post Wed, 10 Oct 2007 - 12:47
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progbloke
post Wed, 10 Oct 2007 - 13:26
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But could the scammers also claim that the NIP would have been received within 14 days by the NORMAL course of post?

And could they also claim that they're not responsible for delays caused by industrial action or anything outside their control?
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firefly
post Wed, 10 Oct 2007 - 13:35
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The requirement is to serve a notice on the registered keeper within 14-days. It is not the fault of the registered keeper if that notice arrives later than this date. The postal strike was well broadcast beforehand, thereby giving the scammers ample opportunity to rectify matters.


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hortz
post Wed, 10 Oct 2007 - 18:48
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QUOTE (firefly @ Wed, 10 Oct 2007 - 14:35) *
The requirement is to serve a notice on the registered keeper within 14-days. It is not the fault of the registered keeper if that notice arrives later than this date. The postal strike was well broadcast beforehand, thereby giving the scammers ample opportunity to rectify matters.


Indeed!! And if speeding was this serious criminal offence which they keep alluding tom where it's in everyone's interests to see the perpertrators brought to justice, the option is always open to them to hand deliver the NIP, thereby ensuring service. Sending them by normal post and risking not complying with the law and letting people get off, anyone would think they were just taking the path of least resistance on a blatant money making exercise. Oh, err..., hang on a minute...
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viper
post Thu, 11 Oct 2007 - 18:00
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THAMES VALLEY POLICE ISSUE RESPONSE

http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/display.var.1753365.0.0.php

Strike won’t put the brakes on speeding fines

SPEEDING Bucks motorists hoping for a slice of luck will not get let off their tickets due to the postal strike.

Dan Campsall, communications manager for Thames Valley Safer Roads Partnership, said he was not aware of any problems with getting tickets to people.

He said: "We are on a circulation list for when any industrial action is going to be taken so we have a heads up fairly early on when there's likely action so that allows us to make sure that we are able to meet postal deadlines and get post out on time.

"The actual law is that we send out tickets within 14 days of a normal course of business, which is through first class post, so as long as we show that we have made every effort then those tickets should still stand.

"We had a big push to get everything posted before the strike happened. It is a notice of intended prosecution therefore the registered owner has 28 days to respond to that notice so we are talking of six weeks since the offence took place."

Mr Campsall added that there were helplines available on the tickets for any motorists with problems.

However, other people faced disruption as a result of the strike. A triathlon team were left shirtless on Sunday after their yellow strips didn't make it to Marlow on time.

The 52 members of Team Harry, who took part in the Rowers Revenge race in memory of 11-year-old meningitis victim Harry Mills, had to make do with competing in what they were wearing.


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bama
post Thu, 11 Oct 2007 - 19:31
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""The actual law is that we send out tickets within 14 days of a normal course of business,"

what b/s !!!

they are just spinning to try to stop people using the 14 day SERVICE.

The press gets it wrong...

but there is a Comments facility at that link...


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Which facts in any situation or problem are “essential” and what makes them “essential”? If the “essential” facts are said to depend on the principles involved, then the whole business, all too obviously, goes right around in a circle. In the light of one principle or set of principles, one bunch of facts will be the “essential” ones; in the light of another principle or set of principles, a different bunch of facts will be “essential.” In order to settle on the right facts you first have to pick your principles, although the whole point of finding the facts was to indicate which principles apply.

Note that I am not legally qualified and any and all statements made are "Reserved". Liability for application lies with the reader.
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firefly
post Thu, 11 Oct 2007 - 20:18
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QUOTE (firefly @ Wed, 10 Oct 2007 - 13:47) *
NOTE: The scammers will lie and say that it is not the date of receipt that is important, but the date of posting, so don't expect them to roll over straight away on this. Further updates will appear on this thread as and when.

Either I'm pyschic, or the scammers are painfully predictable.

QUOTE (Scammers)
We are on a circulation list for when any industrial action is going to be taken so we have a heads up fairly early on when there's likely action so that allows us to make sure that we are able to meet postal deadlines and get post out on time.

Give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves!


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johnjo42
post Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 09:41
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Is Nick Freeman's interview still available. The link in the original post seems to refer to a different programme

This post has been edited by johnjo42: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 09:41
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firefly
post Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 10:28
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Original post updated. Should be easy to find now. smile.gif


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jdfi
post Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 12:17
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QUOTE (bama @ Thu, 11 Oct 2007 - 20:31) *
""The actual law is that we send out tickets within 14 days of a normal course of business,"

what b/s !!!

they are just spinning to try to stop people using the 14 day SERVICE.

The press gets it wrong...

but there is a Comments facility at that link...



Surely the relevant law is "the postal rule" famous in contract law? Or does this _just_ apply to contract law?


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andy_foster
post Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 12:58
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QUOTE (jdfi @ Fri, 12 Oct 2007 - 13:17) *
Surely the relevant law is "the postal rule" famous in contract law? Or does this _just_ apply to contract law?


Is that the 'postal rule' that acceptance (by post) occurs when the acceptance is posted? Or that withrawl of an offer (by post) is only effected when it is received?

There is no single, all encompassing single rule for 'service by post' in English Law, even within 'Civil Law', let alone the entire legal sphere.


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viper
post Sat, 13 Oct 2007 - 09:43
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Coverage in today's Manchester Evening News

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new...ole_for_drivers

Post strike 'loophole' for drivers
Chris Greenwood
13/10/2007

SPEEDING drivers could escape justice because of delays caused by the postal strike, a top motoring legal experts claims.

Nick Freeman (pictured) said motorists may avoid a fine after being caught by a speed camera if the notice does not arrive within 14 days.

The Manchester solicitor, dubbed Mr Loophole for his expertise in defending clients accused of motoring offences, said two weeks is the deadline for notice of any intended prosecution. Postal services across the country have been disrupted as workers stage unofficial action in a row over pay, jobs and pensions.

But Mr Freeman, whose clients have included Sir Alex Ferguson, snooker player Ronnie O'Sullivan and model Caprice, said the driver must produce proof of any delay.

14-day period

He said: "If the notice of intended prosecution arrives outside the 14-day period, the proceedings may well be void, even if the driver has accepted responsibility."

He said people receiving a summons after the deadline would have to prove it was late, perhaps by keeping the franked envelope.

The driver may then also be asked to give evidence on oath in court.

Mr Freeman said: "The rolling postal strike is potentially advantageous from the motorist's point of view


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fuzzybunny
post Wed, 17 Oct 2007 - 07:48
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Mr Loopphole's comments on envelopes dont make sense, he says

Freeman: “The motorist would be well advised to keep their envelopes with the stamps on and the date mark on so that they will be able to prove possible when they were sent and have some documentation to show when they were received. “

My NIP envelope was prepaid 1st Class so no post mark, only stamps get a post mark (cant see the old bill sticking stamps on). Checked with the PO sorting office and the barcodes have no date and the printed bit on the back of the envelope is put on by the autosorter and the only date function on mine is 1007 which just means Oct 07.
So no use in proving when it was delivered.

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firefly
post Wed, 17 Oct 2007 - 11:34
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I personally would recommend writing a letter to the police along the lines of this where a NIP has been received after the 14-day deadline:

QUOTE
Dear Sir

NOTICE OF INTENDED PROSECUTION (NIP) NUMBER *******

After taking legal advice on this matter, I am writing to inform you that the above numbered NIP was received by myself, the registered keeper of the vehicle, on the **th day after the alleged offence.

You will doubtless be aware of the requirements of section 1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988, which requires the registered keeper of a vehicle alleged to be involved in an offence to be served a NIP within 14-days. This was not done, and I have taken the precaution of dating and signing the envelope the NIP arrived in for future reference, should it be required.

Since the requirements of s.1 of the Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 have not been met, I understand that no further prosecution is possible, and I would be grateful if you could acknowledge this to be the case.

Please find enclosed the completed s.172 form which nominates the driver at the time of the alleged offence.

Yours etc


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jeffreyarcher
post Wed, 17 Oct 2007 - 16:47
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QUOTE (fuzzybunny @ Wed, 17 Oct 2007 - 08:48) *
Mr Loopphole's comments on envelopes dont make sense, he says

Freeman: “The motorist would be well advised to keep their envelopes with the stamps on and the date mark on so that they will be able to prove possible when they were sent and have some documentation to show when they were received. “

My NIP envelope was prepaid 1st Class so no post mark, only stamps get a post mark (cant see the old bill sticking stamps on). Checked with the PO sorting office and the barcodes have no date and the printed bit on the back of the envelope is put on by the autosorter and the only date function on mine is 1007 which just means Oct 07.
So no use in proving when it was delivered.

Agreed, not quite as clear cut as Mr. Freeman sugests.
However, there is the general point, that once people have thrwon them out, the solicitor can't get them back. So advisng people to retain them is still sound, just in case.
Also, whilst they are unlikely to provide proof of posting, they might still provide corroborating evidence.
It is when posted which counts, not when prepared and enveloped. Lying in a bag waiting for uplift by the Royal Mail is not posted. There have been many cases (nothing to do with postal strikes) where a scam clerk has given sworn evidence that it was posted when the computer record showed that it was prepared, but under cross examination, they admitted that they hadn't a clue when it was uplifted.
Indeed, in a recent case in here, he admitted under cross-examination, that they were usually uplifted before the days bags were prepared, i.e. they weren't actually uplifted until the following day.
Further, there is usually a red barcode printed on the envelopes, which has the postcode area of the office plus the date, e.g. AB 15.10.07. Whilst that doesn't prove when it was delivered, it does prove that it was still at AB sorting office on 15/10/07.
In another recent case on here, the barcode date showed that it was still 'in the system' on a date by which it should have been delivered.

This post has been edited by jeffreyarcher: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 - 16:51
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Safety Engineer
post Mon, 22 Oct 2007 - 21:54
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So how does this affect company car drivers, where the registered keeper (the company) states that to the best of thier knowledge the driver is X and gives the drivers details?

Is there a time limit from this point to serve a NIP against the driver?

How could a driver respond in 28 days if the NIP is delayed by the recent postal actions?


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jeffreyarcher
post Tue, 23 Oct 2007 - 01:32
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QUOTE (Safety Engineer @ Mon, 22 Oct 2007 - 22:54) *
So how does this affect company car drivers, where the registered keeper (the company) states that to the best of thier knowledge the driver is X and gives the drivers details?

The 14 days applies only to he first NIP in the chain, the one to the registered keeper. Companies seldom own vehicles, for tax reasons. The first NIP is therefore likely to be rquired to be received by a leasing company within the 14 days.

QUOTE (Safety Engineer @ Mon, 22 Oct 2007 - 22:54) *
Is there a time limit from this point to serve a NIP against the driver?

There are no time limts on NIPs other than the first one (as above).

QUOTE (Safety Engineer @ Mon, 22 Oct 2007 - 22:54) *
How could a driver respond in 28 days if the NIP is delayed by the recent postal actions?

1) It's unlikely to be delayed by anything like 28 days, rolleyes.gif
2) The 28 days starts counting from when the notice is received, and
3) In any case, S172 had a 'reasonably practicable' defence.
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jeffreyarcher
post Thu, 8 Nov 2007 - 01:53
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Whilst not intended to be another 'Sucess Stories' thread, I think that the first one constitutes a
QUOTE (firefly @ Wed, 10 Oct 2007 - 12:47) *
Further updates <...> as and when.
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jdfi
post Mon, 24 Dec 2007 - 13:18
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Would the same apply for the Christmas post, given that heavy mail volumes and then two days of no post could definitely assist some motorists?


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Everyone on this forum (even those who may be professionally qualified as something) give advice that is their laymans' opinion. This is given without liability. Everyone will assume you are telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and try to assist you if they can. Photos of signs/the area and scans of documents can help. Never throw anything away even if trivial! Tell all your friends about PePiPoo please!
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jeffreyarcher
post Mon, 24 Dec 2007 - 23:09
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Yes.
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