PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Salter's Hill PCN (Failing to give way...)
goose312
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 12:31
Post #1


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4
Joined: 16 Sep 2019
Member No.: 105,760



Hi there,

I received a letter (attached) from Lambeth Parking the other day for a PCN - 37j Failing to give way to oncoming vehicles.

I have to say, I was very shocked to receive this for several reasons... I have driven down this route for many years now and being aware of the give way, I never knew it was a (chargeable) offence for failing to comply nor did I know there was a camera even in place. Having looked at the road view on Google Maps, I can see a small sign showing a camera enforcement, also that the 'Give Way' sign only comes into view literally at the point of giving way.

I would be grateful for any advice on whether I have grounds for an appeal. The photo on the letter is a bit pixelated and makes it look far worse than I thought (before viewing the video). From my perspective, I moved off before the oncoming vehicle was even on the road (at which point does give way come into play?) and there was more than enough space to not disrupt the cyclist (I'm not too sure what the priority is when applied to them).

Any help would be most appreciated, thanks.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/101Je20p0Y-...ew?usp=drivesdk (video)

This post has been edited by goose312: Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 12:33
Attached File(s)
Attached File  Report_004754.pdf ( 495.19K ) Number of downloads: 45
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 24)
Advertisement
post Mon, 16 Sep 2019 - 12:31
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Fredd
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 14:22
Post #21


Webmaster
Group Icon

Group: Root Admin
Posts: 7,587
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
From: Wokingham, UK
Member No.: 2



Flame Pit, people...


--------------------
Regards,
Fredd

__________________________________________________________________________
Pepipoo relies on you
to keep this site running!
Donate to Pepipoo now using your
Visa, Mastercard, debit card or PayPal account
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 15:28
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,009
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



Lets look at the video. Forget the bike, there was a win here recently when a motorbike went through towards an oncoming van and the adjudicator ruled that as there was room for both then it was not failing to give way.

The oncoming car here did have to slow, so technically there way was obstructed and I can be said that you failed to give way. But you must look to the events When you set off past the give way line and as such into the narrowed area the oncoming car was not in view, even when it comes round the corner does that mean it automatically has right of way? I would say no this right of way derives from the sign on the opposite side of the bridge

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4267731,-...6384!8i8192


You cannot be expected to give way to a vehicle not in view, and once you have started then you are not expected to reverse, even if you could



--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Mr Meldrew
post Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 23:12
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 501
Joined: 31 Aug 2015
From: 19 Riverbank
Member No.: 79,151



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 16:28) *
Lets look at the video. Forget the bike, there was a win here recently when a motorbike went through towards an oncoming van and the adjudicator ruled that as there was room for both then it was not failing to give way.

The oncoming car here did have to slow, so technically there way was obstructed and I can be said that you failed to give way. But you must look to the events When you set off past the give way line and as such into the narrowed area the oncoming car was not in view, even when it comes round the corner does that mean it automatically has right of way? I would say no this right of way derives from the sign on the opposite side of the bridge

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4267731,-...6384!8i8192

You cannot be expected to give way to a vehicle not in view, and once you have started then you are not expected to reverse, even if you could

Your linked view foreshortens the area between the speed cushion and the priority-over sign! You should work for Lambeth council biggrin.gif

Seriously though, the relevant legislation refers to proceeding past the give way lines, so it is correct that you must look to the events when setting off past them. You also say that the oncoming car was not in view when the driver set off past the give way lines and you cannot give way to a vehicle not yet in view, which is indisputable.

The correct question is not, does it have right of way when it comes into view (and I agree not until the priority-over sign), but did the driver proceed past the give way lines in a manner or at a time “likely” to…; clearly, in those events, the answer is no!

The problem with that is, although give way lines do not mean ‘stop’, the driver accelerated and reached the lines just as the other car became detectable, but crucially not yet it’s significant speed. Therefore, applying the correct test, I do not think the driver proceeded past the give way lines in a manner or at a time “likely” to…, but demonstrated diligence because the alternative of bringing a car to a sudden halt would invite a shunt. As I said, if the Council requires motorists to come to a stop, then they should fit a Stop sign.


--------------------
I do tend to have a bee in my bonnet re failing to consider and fairness
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 14:29
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 13,735
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



It's a 20 mph zone, so you wouldn't expect people to be going significantly faster than that.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 15:07
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 18,009
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Mr Meldrew @ Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 00:12) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 17 Sep 2019 - 16:28) *
Lets look at the video. Forget the bike, there was a win here recently when a motorbike went through towards an oncoming van and the adjudicator ruled that as there was room for both then it was not failing to give way.

The oncoming car here did have to slow, so technically there way was obstructed and I can be said that you failed to give way. But you must look to the events When you set off past the give way line and as such into the narrowed area the oncoming car was not in view, even when it comes round the corner does that mean it automatically has right of way? I would say no this right of way derives from the sign on the opposite side of the bridge

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4267731,-...6384!8i8192

You cannot be expected to give way to a vehicle not in view, and once you have started then you are not expected to reverse, even if you could

Your linked view foreshortens the area between the speed cushion and the priority-over sign! You should work for Lambeth council biggrin.gif

Seriously though, the relevant legislation refers to proceeding past the give way lines, so it is correct that you must look to the events when setting off past them. You also say that the oncoming car was not in view when the driver set off past the give way lines and you cannot give way to a vehicle not yet in view, which is indisputable.

The correct question is not, does it have right of way when it comes into view (and I agree not until the priority-over sign), but did the driver proceed past the give way lines in a manner or at a time “likely” to…; clearly, in those events, the answer is no!

The problem with that is, although give way lines do not mean ‘stop’, the driver accelerated and reached the lines just as the other car became detectable, but crucially not yet it’s significant speed. Therefore, applying the correct test, I do not think the driver proceeded past the give way lines in a manner or at a time “likely” to…, but demonstrated diligence because the alternative of bringing a car to a sudden halt would invite a shunt. As I said, if the Council requires motorists to come to a stop, then they should fit a Stop sign.


Don't know about foreshortening.

distances

Give way to start of narrowed area 11.3 metres 1 second at 20mph

Priority to start of narrowed area 17.1 metres 2 seconds at 20mph

speed hump to narrowed area 29.04 metres 3 seconds at 20 mph

start of street to restriction 55.6 metres 6 seconds at 20mph

The OP had crossed the line (so a one second journey, bit more from a standing start) just as the oncoming car comes into view 6 seconds away . IMO a good case to argue that no contravention occurs






--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
2 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Monday, 14th October 2019 - 17:01
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.