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PCN Tunbridge Wells, poor signage
roythebus
post Thu, 11 Jul 2019 - 16:22
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We visited Tunbridge Wells on 1/7/2019 to pop into a specialist shop, parked in a side road. We found a long parking bay with only dotted lines about 50m longThere were no visible parking signs so assumed it was free parking. We came back to the car about 45 minutes later and found a PCN.

We were amazed to find a PCN, then wandered off up the road and found a sign right next to a wall on the corner of the street. It would not have been visible from a driver's point of view turning left into the road, nor from a pedestrian's point of view walking past it (as we did on the way to the shops). See attached photos of the PCN and the sign.

I reckon there should have been a repeater sign every 30m as recommended in TSGRD 13.21.3. As it is, all the signs along there are wall-mounted, and the lettering on the sign is ambiguous. An appeal will be lodges with these points. Can anyone spot any faults with the PCN?

I've loaded the pics to Imageshack but can't work out how to get them on here. tinypic doesn't seem to work. any ideas how to do it these days? It's ages since I posted on here.
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roythebus
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 08:39
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Sorry about not replying earlier, dealing with a family bereavement has left me a bit short of time, the NTO was received on 21/8/19 and has to be back today!

Hopefully I'll try to load redacted copies of the NTO here. I still can't fathom out how to do this.

Iv'e loaded the images to Imgur, how do I get them on here? The sticky is so out of date I can't fathom this out. help!

I've tried loading directly from "my photos" as a jpeg, that doesn't work either.

Let's try this: https://imgur.com/DSvwcs9
and this for the other side https://imgur.com/VCcsCsD

This post has been edited by roythebus: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 08:46
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 16:16
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Tomorrow is the last day.

Send your original challenge and add.

ground 2 there has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the council

The PCN served fails to convey the information required by the regulations at 3(2)(b)(ii) of the appeals regulations of 2007

and 3 there has been a procedural impropriety on the part of the council

The council are required to state within the body of a PCN the reason that a CEO believes a penalty is Due In this case the CEO chose code 12 "Parked in a residents’ or shared use parking place or zone without either clearly displaying a valid permit or voucher or pay and display ticket issued for that place, or without payment of the parking charge"

If the signage is deemed adequate. I argue that it is not, then the reason the CEO believes a penalty is due is incorrect. The bay is actually signed" Permit holders only"

No reference is made to residents or to shared use. The correct code should be code 16 "Parked in a permit space or zone without clearly displaying a valid permit"

The council are not at liberty to use any description they like, they must define the contravention correctly. This they have not done and the PCN must be cancelled


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roythebus
post Wed, 18 Sep 2019 - 17:22
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Thanks, I'll add that to my appeal form later.
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roythebus
post Mon, 23 Sep 2019 - 22:48
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So, having posted the appeal to Tunbridge Wells District Council by first class post on the 17th, I was surprised to recive in the pos ton Saturday morning the letter telling my to pay £105 with 14 days or they would be taking me to court!

Whether or not they had received my appeal "with 2 days" is not known; I couldn't send the letter recorded delivery as we are nowhere near a post office. I tried sending an email copy but there doesn't appear to be a facility to download the form and retun it by email, it had to be hand-written and posted. they seem to be remarkably quick at getting out the "you're too late, pay up or else letter".

We're in Belgium this week so can't access their letter or send a copy of the appeal I sent them. I dud put in my appeal that their PCN was invalid because of the points mentioned above. Maybe the county court will see that side of the defence!
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cp8759
post Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 09:51
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You'll have to wait for the Order for Recovery, and then file a witness statement to the effect that you made representations but did not receive a notice of rejection.


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roythebus
post Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 22:55
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Does that come from the county court or the council?
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Incandescent
post Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 08:05
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Tue, 24 Sep 2019 - 23:55) *
Does that come from the county court or the council?

Council, but can only be issued after TEC have registered the debt.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 09:10
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???

OP posted on 18th Sept:
NTO was received on 21/8/19 and has to be back today!

The content of this and immediately subsequent posts made it clear that reps had not been sent at this time.

The OP has now posted:

having posted the appeal to Tunbridge Wells District Council by first class post on the 17th,


OP, pl review your comments.

Also, do you have proof of posting from the post office?

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roythebus
post Wed, 25 Sep 2019 - 16:43
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My typo! Should have read 18th, Wednesday. I tried dong the appeal online but that was not possible, no facility to do it.I was not able to get proof of posting on the 19th, the following day, we don't live anywhere near a post office. We had to go to a funeral in Brighton and even on that journey didn't pass a post office believe it or not.

According to pastmybest the 19th was the last day to get the appeal in. Assuming the 2 day rule for posting letter also applies to letters I send to the council as well as letters they send to me, they should have received my appeal by Saturday 21st September. Their letter to me was dated on that day.

As I may have said earlier, I've had a family bereavement to deal with in the last month as well as another funeral of a friend, as well as various hospital appointments. Other things have unfortunately had to take priority.

We're currently abroad trying to recuperate from the last few weeks so can't see any post until we get back.
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roythebus
post Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 19:44
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An update on this, we're now back from abroad. In the post this morning was a letter of rejection, giving me 28 days to appeal to the Tribunal.

By having already sent the letter referred to in post no.24 have they spoilt their chances? Getting things out of order has been known to make them lose cases in the past.

I'll try to scan and post their latest letter tomorrow as soon as I've recovered from a lot of driving on the wrong side of the road!
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 30 Sep 2019 - 22:28
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Save us having to keep going back and to roy and post all the docs in chronological order in one post. But yes if they have sent the CC before a NOR they should stuff them


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roythebus
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:12
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Ok, personal problems seem to be resolving themselves, here's hopefully (for the 3rd time of trying) a list of documents: sorry if things are duplicated, I'm still struggling with Imgur and downloading stuff.


Basically, PCN issued 01/07/19;

NTO issued 21/08/19

Appeal sent, can't find the copy at the moment

Charge Certificate issued

Notice of rejection issued 30/09/19

Surely with the CC being issued before the NOR they've not followed the correct process and lose by default?


https://imgur.com/a/nePbHLT

https://imgur.com/DSvwcs9

<a hr...gur.com/VCcsCsD


<a href=...m/VCcsCsD</a>

</a>https://goo.gl/maps/WzyA8vbZqWbUzYwS9

and the latest paperwork (if I can find how to copy the link)

https://imgur.com/gallery/QIg7yYw

I realise this is getting close to the date for getting an appeal in to the adjudicator. Thanks for your help, wht should I write next? There's been so many personal problems I've lost the plot with this one! thanks in advance.

This post has been edited by roythebus: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:38
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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 17 Oct 2019 - 20:50
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your appeal need be registered by the 29th but we need to see the docs Roy CC and notice of rejection


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roythebus
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 09:05
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CC and NOR here:https://imgur.com/gallery/QIg7yYw
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cp8759
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 18:50
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Do you have proof of postage for your representation? I suppose it is possible that if it arrived after close of business on 19 October, the council might have been justified in issuing the CC. However if that is the council's position (which is the interpretation of events that favours the council the most), the council then has a choice:

1) It can disregard the representations as being out of time, and either not issue a reply or issue a reply stating the representations have been disregarded and the CC stands, or
2) It can consider the representations and issue a NoA or NoR

If it issues a NoR, that NoR must comply with the regulations, including reg 6 here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/6/made which provides that:

that notice shall—
(a) state that a charge certificate may be served unless before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice of rejection—
(i) the penalty charge is paid; or
(ii) the person on whom the notice is served appeals to an adjudicator against the penalty charge;


The NoR instead says that if the charge is not paid or appealed, the council "will" apply to the county court to recover the debt. Apart from being a will / may flaw, the council has no authority to to issue a NoR at the CC rate. The penalty should have been re-set to £70 and the NOR should say that if you don't pay or appeal a CC may be issued.

In any case as the discount is long gone, there's no risk in appealing to the tribunal. If the council has any sense it won't contest but if it does, I would go after it for costs.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 18:51


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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 19:06
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 19:50) *
Do you have proof of postage for your representation? I suppose it is possible that if it arrived after close of business on 19 October, the council might have been justified in issuing the CC. However if that is the council's position (which is the interpretation of events that favours the council the most), the council then has a choice:

1) It can disregard the representations as being out of time, and either not issue a reply or issue a reply stating the representations have been disregarded and the CC stands, or
2) It can consider the representations and issue a NoA or NoR

If it issues a NoR, that NoR must comply with the regulations, including reg 6 here http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/34...gulation/6/made which provides that:

that notice shall—
(a) state that a charge certificate may be served unless before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice of rejection—
(i) the penalty charge is paid; or
(ii) the person on whom the notice is served appeals to an adjudicator against the penalty charge;


The NoR instead says that if the charge is not paid or appealed, the council "will" apply to the county court to recover the debt. Apart from being a will / may flaw, the council has no authority to to issue a NoR at the CC rate. The penalty should have been re-set to £70 and the NOR should say that if you don't pay or appeal a CC may be issued.

In any case as the discount is long gone, there's no risk in appealing to the tribunal. If the council has any sense it won't contest but if it does, I would go after it for costs.


Save all the cut & paste

https://imgur.com/gallery/QIg7yYw

The NoR has won it for you, unless an adjudicator has a brain fart



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roythebus
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 22:17
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The CC was received at the end of August, probably the 23rd, the NOR was received on 27th August if I remember correctly as mentioned in an earlier thread. My appeal was sent on 19th September from a postbox near Seaford, there was no chance to get proof of posting. The CC was dated before the end of the permitted period not allowing for the 2 days delivery.

This post has been edited by roythebus: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 22:18
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 22:39
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QUOTE (roythebus @ Fri, 18 Oct 2019 - 23:17) *
The CC was received at the end of August, probably the 23rd, the NOR was received on 27th August if I remember correctly as mentioned in an earlier thread. My appeal was sent on 19th September from a postbox near Seaford, there was no chance to get proof of posting. The CC was dated before the end of the permitted period not allowing for the 2 days delivery.


Roy you have got to be a bit more precise. The CC was dated 20th Sept presumed served on the 24th If on representation was recieved then this is OK. But they have sent you a notice of rejection so by default they must have recieved representations, either in time or late but not disregarded.

This being so the CC should not have been served but might be excused. What cannot be excused is the demand for £105 instead of £70 also there are the flaws within the PCN and the NoR to appeal Don't rush in with this you will need some help


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hcandersen
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 09:36
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Can we cut to the chase.

OP, are the following dates and amounts correct?

NTO demanding payment of £70 issued: 21 Aug
Last day of 28-day period: 19 Sept.
OP's reps sent: we do NOT know. Just because a letter is placed in a postbox does not constitute sending for the purposes of the Act, it must be delivered to the Royal Mail which would not have happened on 19th Sept. if the next post was on 20th. Anyway, the point is not key. Even a letter posted on 19th would not be deemed delivered until 21st, 2 days after the end of the 28-day period.
Were the authority entitled to serve a CC? Yes, the penalty had not been paid by the end of the 28-day period nor had reps been made within the same period.

So what? As per cp, their options were to consider, thereby cancelling the CC, or to disregard. If the former, then they were obliged to write to the person making the reps and issue a NOA or NOR. If the latter, then they were not obliged to do anything and the processing of the CC could continue.

What did they do? They issued a NOR demanding a penalty of £105.

Grounds for appeal pursuant to receipt of the NOR: Penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

This is not a debating point nor one on which an adj should spend more than 5 seconds. They are dead in the water.

Write to them and point out their error. Give them 7 days to cancel in writing. If nothing received, register appeal and then submit a claim for costs.

IMO, do not worry about subjective matters such as will/may. Contrary to popular belief, where there is a will there is not necessarily a way..to success.
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cp8759
post Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 14:45
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 19 Oct 2019 - 10:36) *
What did they do? They issued a NOR demanding a penalty of £105.

Grounds for appeal pursuant to receipt of the NOR: Penalty exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

This is not a debating point nor one on which an adj should spend more than 5 seconds. They are dead in the water.

+1, this is as close to a sure thing as we could ever hope for.


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